The Historical Jesus Never Existed

[fzappa13]

So, this guy is your avatar, guru, teacher, trusted confidant or what?



... and why?

 

[freelight]

Rebirth (reincarnation)

Rebirth (reincarnation)

... and then there is something to be said for getting a "do over". Life doesn't often afford those ... that is of course, unless you believe in ... well, you know.

Well yes,...you may remember I had my own 'reincarnation' thread and contributed to another one we had, but these are no longer extant. I entertain the philosophical concept of 'rebirth', and there are different points of view and the mechanics involved in it. I think LOVE gives us as many opportunities as can be afforded provided we are able to respond to such, and have the will to endure within the providence granted. Again, there are different theories in the doctrine of 'rebirth' (reincarnation)....so we'll leave it at that for now.

 

[freelight]

So, this guy is your avatar, guru, teacher, trusted confidant or what?



... and why?

It think one ought to consider the message, instead of focus on the messenger

 

[Zeke]

So, this guy is your avatar, guru, teacher, trusted confidant or what?



... and why?

No baby-lon started this thread so I am just posting vid's that contribute to the theme, I have no guru or Savior in the since you would prescribe to seeing no man can ascend who hasn't descended from heaven first, Galatians 4:24, Luke 15:45, 17:20-21, 2Cor 3:6,

 

[Zeke]

Matt 11:11, John 14:12-14, So Frankie why haven't you shut down the cancer wards if you should be doing greater works than Jesus? Well that's the elephant in the dead letter (2Cor 3:6)room now isn't it?

 

[Zeke]

Maybe this why!

 

[Zeke]

 

[freelight]

Bear traps and brass tacks ..........

Bear traps and brass tacks ..........

Oh please stop with the pretense; your mind is about as open as a sprung bear

Everything I've written stands, bear-traps aside

You've bought Blavatsky's theological flapdoodle hook,line and sinker long ago with a lot less witness and veracity than Christianity can muster.

I think Blavatsky drew from a well of universal wisdom common to all religious traditions and Nature herself, whose fundamental laws hold to reason, science and spiritual intelligence, at least enough to be true to an underlying esoteric truth, whose principles are both natural and cosmic. Such is the path of spiritual progress and evolution. Also, I just for fun, identify here as an 'eclectic theosophist', because I'm eclectic and am a 'theosophist' in a most liberal sense, a lover of divine wisdom, which is essentially what 'theosophy' is (divine wisdom, wisdom of 'God' or the 'gods') :angel: - I've only as a prospect taken to learn the original theosophy of Blavatsky and a few of her faithful devotees (mind you I don't care much for some aspects of the teaching, just some fundamentals), to see how forms of 'neo-theosophy' branched off the original schools, adding some controversy,...so its merely a curiosity of mine, and we can learn something in the research.

Her source of wisdom being her so called "Ascended Masters" who, upon closer inspection, turn out to be Pike, Mazzini and other such provocateurs.

Well, that would be a matter of debate, education and further research, biases included - remember the perennial wisdom is UNIVERSAL, so any teacher of philosophy drawing from universal Source, would naturally agree in principle and analogy on some main fundamentals, hence their 'similiarity' - many schools or branches that sprang from Blavatsky's original dispensation, also contact or 'channel' various ascended masters,....so you can pick your flavor among them, just as well as one can choose any various Christian denomination, although the latter volume of sects is more vast.

These champions of Gnosticism claim an antiquity of thought whose documentation is so sparse as to make the most novice of the intellectually honest blush in embarrassment.

Speaking of documentation,....we've already addressed the forgeries of Josephus and the doctoring of various texts by Christian apologists,.....hence there isn't very much attestation or proof of a 'historical' Jesus in the first few centuries, beyond in the 2nd and 3rd centuries there already being formed various Christian groups and theologies as such, which took on their own evolution and developments, only proving a 'Christianity' in various traditions or forms of 'orthodoxy' came into being. Since this is a thread about a 'historical' Jesus, we are looking at the most liberal extreme viewpoints or conclusions, and must LOOK at the 'evidence' or 'lack thereof' in the case of Jesus. Documentation outside the Bible itself for some of its various characters looks a bit embarrassing, except for those who take it by 'faith'....since such is lacking on many accounts. There is even speculation on if Paul is an actual 'historical' figure, and any number of characters he could be a compilation of, so there could be some religious fiction and co-creating of characters at work here.

 

[fzappa13]

No baby-lon started this thread so I am just posting vid's that contribute to the theme, I have no guru or Savior in the since you would prescribe to seeing no man can ascend who hasn't descended from heaven first, Galatians 4:24, Luke 15:45, 17:20-21, 2Cor 3:6,

As far as I can tell you are a copy and paste artist that let's others do your thinking for you.

 

[fzappa13]

I think Blavatsky drew from a well of universal wisdom common to all religious traditions and Nature herself, whose fundamental laws hold to reason, science and spiritual intelligence, at least enough to be true to an underlying esoteric truth, whose principles are both natural and cosmic.

You can “think” what you want. Blavatsky herself has admitted her sources in her memoirs. I know this is terribly inconvenient for those inclined to consume her earlier offerings as holy writ but, as the noted philosopher Bill Parcells once offered, “It is what it is.” You here admit that your intellect is the final arbiter of what is true. One would hope the limitations of that presumption to be self evident. When you begin to apply the effort to studying the life of Blavatsky and her philosophy that you have to discrediting the Christian faith you'll find all this soon enough. I, for one, will not hold my breath in anticipation of this glorious event.

Such is the path of spiritual progress and evolution. Also, I just for fun, identify here as an 'eclectic theosophist', because I'm eclectic and am a 'theosophist' in a most liberal sense, a lover of divine wisdom, which is essentially what 'theosophy' is (divine wisdom, wisdom of 'God' or the 'gods') -

You can redefine the term “theosophy” as many times as is necessary to suit your purpose but, at the end of the day, that's Blavatsky's baby.

I've only as a prospect taken to learn the original theosophy of Blavatsky and a few of her faithful devotees (mind you I don't care much for some aspects of the teaching, just some fundamentals), to see how forms of 'neo-theosophy' branched off the original schools, adding some controversy,...so its merely a curiosity of mine, and we can learn something in the research.

In this you remind me of most of my Christian brethren … picking and choosing what they like of the Bible as if it were some sort of spiritual buffet whilst distancing themselves from that which they see as embarrassing, inexplicable or distasteful.

Well, that would be a matter of debate, education and further research, biases included - remember the perennial wisdom is UNIVERSAL, so any teacher of philosophy drawing from universal Source, would naturally agree in principle and analogy on some main fundamentals, hence their 'similiarity' - many schools or branches that sprang from Blavatsky's original dispensation, also contact or 'channel' various ascended masters,....so you can pick your flavor among them, just as well as one can choose any various Christian denomination, although the latter volume of sects is more vast.

Although I would agree that wisdom is universal I fear we disagree as to it's source.

Speaking of documentation,....we've already addressed the forgeries of Josephus and the doctoring of various texts by Christian apologists,.....hence there isn't very much attestation or proof of a 'historical' Jesus in the first few centuries, beyond in the 2nd and 3rd centuries there already being formed various Christian groups and theologies as such, which took on their own evolution and developments, only proving a 'Christianity' in various traditions or forms of 'orthodoxy' came into being. Since this is a thread about a 'historical' Jesus, we are looking at the most liberal extreme viewpoints or conclusions, and must LOOK at the 'evidence' or 'lack thereof' in the case of Jesus. Documentation outside the Bible itself for some of its various characters looks a bit embarrassing, except for those who take it by 'faith'....since such is lacking on many accounts. There is even speculation on if Paul is an actual 'historical' figure, and any number of characters he could be a compilation of, so there could be some religious fiction and co-creating of characters at work here.

Again, you hold the Bible to a standard you are unwilling to apply to your chosen founts of knowledge. At a certain point you are going to have to address this if you continue to insist on claiming any sort of intellectual honesty. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Zeke]

As far as I can tell you are a copy and paste artist that let's others do your thinking for you.

You are a parrot as well unless you can prove all you're thoughts are original. The truth is revealed within Galatians 1:12 and isn't learned, religion cleans the outside of the cup and patronizes this world instead of seeking the kingdom within Luke 17:20-21.

 

[fzappa13]

You are a parrot as well unless you can prove all you're thoughts are original. The truth is revealed within Galatians 1:12 and isn't learned, religion cleans the outside of the cup and patronizes this world instead of seeking the kingdom within Luke 17:20-21.

Well good. Your own words for a change. That's a start.

As it concerns Gal 1:12; taken in context it refers to Paul referring to the source of his understanding. Now, unless your intent is to claim you talked to Jesus too you might want to cool your jets a little. Actually, you probably should either way.

As it concerns Luke 17 I would not misconstrue what Jesus said to mean the source of the kingdom to be you ... it is where it manifests but is not it's point of origin.

 

[freelight]

Tootles.....

Tootles.....

You can “think” what you want. Blavatsky herself has admitted her sources in her memoirs. I know this is terribly inconvenient for those inclined to consume her earlier offerings as holy writ but, as the noted philosopher Bill Parcells once offered, “It is what it is.” You here admit that your intellect is the final arbiter of what is true. One would hope the limitations of that presumption to be self evident. When you begin to apply the effort to studying the life of Blavatsky and her philosophy that you have to discrediting the Christian faith you'll find all this soon enough. I, for one, will not hold my breath in anticipation of this glorious event.

I'll have to research that,....but as I said, at least the 3 fundamental propositions still hold, and the basic philosophical precepts are universal in scope and nature. The Perennial Wisdom is timeless and reveals itself in the movements of Nature...and the soul. Whether who borrows or expands upon former teachers/teachings, each is a different dispensation thereof.

You can redefine the term “theosophy” as many times as is necessary to suit your purpose but, at the end of the day, that's Blavatsky's baby.

I do hold to my liberal definition of 'theosophy' for what it means, without necessarily using a capital "T" (Theosophy) in denoting Blavatsky's system,....since it just means 'wisdom of God/gods', or 'divine wisdom'. No pickle there. Apples or oranges? As someone interested in Blavatsky's teaching, one can study that and see how the Thesophical Society diverted from some aspects of her original teaching, the rest is history.


In this

you remind me of most of my Christian brethren … picking and choosing what they like of the Bible as if it were some sort of spiritual buffet whilst distancing themselves from that which they see as embarrassing, inexplicable or distasteful.

Nah, its just common sense and rationality to continue to research/test whatever 'belief-system' you hold to,....life is an ongoing procession, an evolution, a continuation of learning. Of course there are cherry-pickers in every orchard

Although I would agree that wisdom is universal I fear we disagree as to it's source.

Uh...there is One Universal Source for All That is,...and that is The ALL, or The ONE itself. Call it 'Deity' or 'God',...such is the origin of all life, being, consciousness. Wisdom comes from no other source. There is no other.

Again, you hold the Bible to a standard you are unwilling to apply to your chosen founts of knowledge. At a certain point you are going to have to address this if you continue to insist on claiming any sort of intellectual honesty. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

The standard of considering all postulates, suppositions, propositions holds for all, so not sure where I'm not applying that to any of the sundry materials I've explored, since their meaning or value will be apparent or less so. Intellectual honesty? Well,....its present, and engaging from moment to moment, with curious dips and dives, and sometimes modifications Those who question the historicity of Jesus are engaging whatever historical facts exist in the records, and seeing the possible embellishments thereof, since Christianity grew into its own entity more or less, having many offsprings.

 

[Zeke]

Well good. Your own words for a change. That's a start.

As it concerns Gal 1:12; taken in context it refers to Paul referring to the source of his understanding. Now, unless your intent is to claim you talked to Jesus too you might want to cool your jets a little. Actually, you probably should either way.

As it concerns Luke 17 I would not misconstrue what Jesus said to mean the source of the kingdom to be you ... it is where it manifests but is not it's point of origin.

Jesus is only a symbol of the inner man, which is where the kingdom is located along with the temple, yet you would wrongly presume Jesus was an actual carnal man Matt 11:11, instead of a type,shadow,similitude etc......of the new birth that awakens the Divine spark in us which Galatians 4:20-28 teaches about the two Fathers, Mothers, Siblings, one carnal the other spiritual within man not historic tales of actual people used as an allegory, any exoteric christ is a false god which you be lie eve in. Cloud watching through traditional colored glasses, time to wake up Dorthy.

 

[Zeke]

Well good. Your own words for a change. That's a start.

As it concerns Gal 1:12; taken in context it refers to Paul referring to the source of his understanding. Now, unless your intent is to claim you talked to Jesus too you might want to cool your jets a little. Actually, you probably should either way.

As it concerns Luke 17 I would not misconstrue what Jesus said to mean the source of the kingdom to be you ... it is where it manifests but is not it's point of origin.

You won't receive it but this is the real good news for all people not some westernized false Roman mind program that excludes and retards the Divine nature just like you're traditional johnny come lately message does! plagiarized from past cultures who grasps the intent of the stories which referred to the eternal now with no time stamp but you will keep killing the message 2Cor 3:6..

 

[freelight]

the nuts n bolts of IT...........

the nuts n bolts of IT...........

You are a parrot as well unless you can prove all you're thoughts are original.

And lets look to see in Jesus teachings what is 'original', and not universal themes, ideas and concepts already existing from the great pool of universal wisdom mirrored in various religious traditions from time immemorial. Using the 'original' card holds no water, since only 'God' the is Original MIND from which all thoughts, ideas, 'logos', 'laws', 'principles' emerge and inhere. 'God' is the Only MIND that IS, the One universal LIGHT, the infinite Source and origin of all, the First Source and CENTER. - the fact is that all individual minds are but 'mirrors' for Infinite MIND,....so none of these minds reflecting 'God' is original! - they are but mirrors, rays of the One Light. Word!

The truth is revealed within Galatians 1:12 and isn't learned, religion cleans the outside of the cup and patronizes this world instead of seeking the kingdom within Luke 17:20-21.

Yep, so says Paul the gnostic, whose 'gospel' is essentially a 'mystery religion', which has 'Christ' as the spiritualized center-piece (the divine spirit that incarnates, is buried, resurrects and ascends back to heaven), and we as living vessels who contain the 'Christ' in us are but extensions of the same soul essence being BORN into the word of matter. - it just so happens that the gospels historicizes this making Jesus more 'human', a real human being? (but later compound this character with both 100% divinity and humanity :think: ) - anyways, since the kingdom of God is within it is also without and all-encompassing as long as Spirit has preeminence as omnipresent. Still the Spirit gives life, words are but symbols, carriers, pointers, conceptual helps along the way, that assist our understanding and communication of the essential ideas and meanings being portrayed. This is all that is happening....no matter if you slap a 'historical' or 'mythical' sticker on a posterboard of Jesus. All you still have is what the story of Jesus COMMUNICATES, its meaning and value....and how this has anything to do with your own transformation.

 

[Zeke]

And lets look to see in Jesus teachings what is 'original', and not universal themes, ideas and concepts already existing from the great pool of universal wisdom mirrored in various religious traditions from time immemorial. Using the 'original' card holds no water, since only 'God' the is Original MIND from which all thoughts, ideas, 'logos', 'laws', 'principles' emerge and inhere. 'God' is the Only MIND that IS, the One universal LIGHT, the infinite Source and origin of all, the First Source and CENTER. - the fact is that all individual minds are but 'mirrors' for Infinite MIND,....so none of these minds reflecting 'God' is original! - they are but mirrors, rays of the One Light. Word!




Yep, so says Paul the gnostic, whose 'gospel' is essentially a 'mystery religion', which has 'Christ' as the spiritualized center-piece (the divine spirit that incarnates, is buried, resurrects and ascends back to heaven), and we as living vessels who contain the 'Christ' in us are but extensions of the same soul essence being BORN into the word of matter. - it just so happens that the gospels historicizes this making Jesus more 'human', a real human being? (but later compound this character with both 100% divinity and humanity :think: ) - anyways, since the kingdom of God is within it is also without and all-encompassing as long as Spirit has preeminence as omnipresent. Still the Spirit gives life, words are but symbols, carriers, pointers, conceptual helps along the way, that assist our understanding and communication of the essential ideas and meanings being portrayed. This is all that is happening....no matter if you slap a 'historical' or 'mythical' sticker on a posterboard of Jesus. All you still have is what the story of Jesus COMMUNICATES, its meaning and value....and how this has anything to do with your own transformation.

Yea they can't except that the teachings existed before the carnal Christ theory materialized, and claimed copy rights to those ancient allegorical stories that morphed with the cultural changes through the ages.

 

[freelight]

Yea they can't except that the teachings existed before the carnal Christ theory materialized, and claimed copy rights to those ancient allegorical stories that morphed with the cultural changes through the ages.

"As in Adam all die, even so in 'Christ' shall all be made alive"

 

[Caino]

You are correct, like colors to an artist Jesus used many existing truths and symbolism in his enlargement of the revelation of the Father.

When the Israelites were once again in bondage in Babylon, the Hebrew scripture writers adopted the preexisting lore of Adam and Eve, a very prominent and common Mesipotamian story. Unable to factually trace their blood lines to Adam, they used the local flood legand of Noah to drown the whole world in order to fill the gap.

One of the underlying reasons for the hatred between the Jews and their Semitic cousins is because the other cultures of Mesipotamia know about the history revisions.

 

[fzappa13]

Who left the door open on the Urantia thread? If you folks just want to back slap each other and ignore the offerings of others you might as well slither back there.