Old Hat
Member
This silly argument of yours has aged, died and is stinking now.
Give it a rest.
It is woefully incompetent to make any profound point in this discussion.
Only Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no god!
- Thread starter Elia
- Start date
Give it a rest.
It is woefully incompetent to make any profound point in this discussion.
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
It shows the Trinity to be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
- It does not show the Father to be the Son.
- It does not show the Father to be the Holy Ghost.
- It does not show the Son to be the Father.
- It does not show the Son to be the Holy Ghost.
- It does not show the Holy Ghost to be the Father.
- It does not show the Holy Ghost to be the Son.
Excellent post!
I have to say, I no longer have the patience required to discuss such thing with people. It seems to never bear any fruit except with those who already agree that such things are heresy. You could talk with this joker until you're blue in the face and it won't move him one single inch. He only pretends to use logic. In reality, he doesn't care about whether his doctrine actually makes sense. He is in love with and married to being contrary to practically every other Christian that has existed throughout the last two millennia. If you took that away, he'd feel too mundane and average and his reason for existence would vanish. (Proverbs 11:2)
I agree, Clete, except that some onlooker might benefit from us laying out the contrasting positions and sometimes I just feel the need to rehearse an argument that may be useful in a face to face encounter in the real world.
Like you, I mostly no longer have the patience but just now and then the gumption rises up in me to post something that I consider relevant, all the while being conscious of the fact that it's likely in futility.
I mostly just don't have the energy for long posts anymore.
Thanks for your acknowledgement.
Old Hat
Member
Which of them comes to live with us when we get saved?
Old Hat
Member
Old Hat
Member
Yeah, you're reverting back to your absolute ONLY strategy again.
Show the trinity concept of God being three persons taught in the Bible somewhere.
Until you can do that, your statement there is falsehood.
There is no trinity taught anywhere in all the Bible so claiming that any verse represents that fraudulent concept is horse manure.
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
By your word "God", here, to which one of these three persons are you referring:
- The Father?
- The Son?
- The Holy Spirit?
Which of those three requests is the request you are making?
Old Hat
Member
Your silly question assumes a false foundation - that there is a trinity of three persons within God.
I'm not answering because it's a question with an illegitimate premise that I don't subscribe to.
My question was very simple and perfectly legitimate within Scriptural teaching.
If God is three persons, as YOU claim, which of those persons comes to live with us?
Old Hat
Member
You can no more demonstrate any of those than you can produce a teaching from the Bible that God is three persons so you are just stalling.
You have no more options.
You have reached the end of your ability to argue for your case.
Your case has no Truthful foundation so it has nowhere to go.
Same conclusion as always when debating the trinity with anybody.
Work them into a corner and they just go in circles from there.
Nothing else can be done.
It's a checkmate that they refuse to accept.
| Jesus Is God: The dramatic contrast in the above chart shows Christ's self-presentation compared to the angels and prophets who present God to the world. These other messengers elevated not themselves, but God. They focused attention not on themselves but on Him. Godly priests, kings, and apostles presented God as their motivating message, of course, and not themselves. Jesus, on the other hand, came speaking about Himself. His most oft used, favorite title for Himself, undoubtedly selected also to communicate His mission, is not the "Son of God", but the "Son of Man". For, eternally He was the Son of God, but being the Son of Man was new to Him and uniquely cherished. God the Son submits Himself to the Father, willingly, not as a sign of a lesser God, but of His greatness. For as He lowers Himself, He is exalted to the central truth of Creation! (See the above chart.) Thus His "I say unto you" is the Scripture's "Thus Saith the Lord"! . . . The Plurality in God: The very first verse of Genesis presents the plurality of God, with Genesis 1:1 using a plural subject and a singular verb, that is, In the beginning gods He created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is the plural of the typical Hebrew word for God, which is El (cherub and seraph for example become plural as cherubim and seraphim, with Elah likely being the dual form, and Elohim being a plurality, in this case, three for the triune God). So, did Moses make a grammatical error in the first sentence of the first book of Scripture, in what has become not only the world's best-selling book, but in the most well-known sentence in the history of the world by using a singular verb with a plural subject? Of course not. For this was intentional. The Hebrew Scriptures in the most solemn texts presents God as a unified plurality. What grammarians refer to as the "royal we" comes from God's references to Himself using the plural: "Let Us make man in Our image," (Gen. 1:26). The solemn Hebrew prayer, called the Shema Yisroel, to the "one God" uses another plurality. For "The Lord our God, the Lord is One (of plurality)" at Deuteronomy 6:4 uses neither of the expected terms, yachad or even bad, words meaning a singularity, but God's Word uses the word echad, which is one in plurality as used by God at the Tower of Babel, "the people are one," and by Joseph "the dreams of Pharaoh are one," and by Moses, "the people answered with one voice," and back again to the beginning of Genesis at the institution of marriage when God says, "and they shall become one flesh." So this foundation prayer to God does not the use the Hebrew words for one, which mean a singularity (which words are never used in the Bible referring to God), but God describes Himself in the Bible using the One of plurality. So the Shema says: the Jehovah (who is the one God) our Elohim (plural) Jehovah is a Plural Unity! And Deuteronomy 6:4 is the central passage to all theology of God. Then the Scriptures go on to teach that the three Persons of the Trinity are God the Father (Isa. 63:16; Mal. 2:10), God the Son (Ps. 2:12; Zech. 12:10 and as in the chart above), and God the Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Isa. 48:16; Isa. 6:3; Rom. 5:5). See also Mat. 28:19; Acts 5:3-4, 9; 2 Cor. 13:14, and Psalm 110:1 with Matthew 22:41-46, and verses that show the personhood of the Spirit including Heb. 10:15-17. The Mystery in the Godhead: How can one God exist in three persons? Christian theologians have long described this as a mystery, but it is an expected mystery. Virtually everything, deep down, is a mystery. What is light (with its wave-particle duality)? What is life (with modern biology unable to agree on a definition)? What is matter (that it leaves modern physics bewildered)? What is space? What is energy? What is time? What is movement? (Is it a series of discrete stationary states?) How can the Creator bring the universe into existence from nothing? How can your non-physical spirit be attached to your physical body? How can God exist from the beginningless past? How can creatures procreate and bring everlasting beings into existence? In humility we acknowledge that virtually everything in the creation is a deep, almost unfathomable mystery. How much more mysterious would be the God who made us? If Christianity taught that there are three Gods in One God, that would be a contradiction, and by the laws of logic, therefore false. For 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and each 1 would be 1/3rd of the whole, which is anathema to trinitarian theology. But by analogizing God with math we see that the number line lacks sufficient multidimensionality and points us to the 3-dimensionality of space and an appropriate anaology wherein 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. And likewise, if Christianity taught that there are three Persons in One Person, that also would be false. But Christianity teaches that there are three Persons in One God, and while being a deep mystery (what isn't?), that is no contradiction. |
Old Hat
Member
Here are 28 verses that prove God is ONE singular individual person.
Jesus Is God: The dramatic contrast in the above chart shows Christ's self-presentation compared to the angels and prophets who present God to the world. These other messengers elevated not themselves, but God. They focused attention not on themselves but on Him. Godly priests, kings, and apostles presented God as their motivating message, of course, and not themselves. Jesus, on the other hand, came speaking about Himself. His most oft used, favorite title for Himself, undoubtedly selected also to communicate His mission, is not the "Son of God", but the "Son of Man". For, eternally He was the Son of God, but being the Son of Man was new to Him and uniquely cherished. God the Son submits Himself to the Father, willingly, not as a sign of a lesser God, but of His greatness. For as He lowers Himself, He is exalted to the central truth of Creation! (See the above chart.) Thus His "I say unto you" is the Scripture's "Thus Saith the Lord"!
. . .
The Plurality in God: The very first verse of Genesis presents the plurality of God, with Genesis 1:1 using a plural subject and a singular verb, that is, In the beginning gods He created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is the plural of the typical Hebrew word for God, which is El (cherub and seraph for example become plural as cherubim and seraphim, with Elah likely being the dual form, and Elohim being a plurality, in this case, three for the triune God). So, did Moses make a grammatical error in the first sentence of the first book of Scripture, in what has become not only the world's best-selling book, but in the most well-known sentence in the history of the world by using a singular verb with a plural subject? Of course not. For this was intentional. The Hebrew Scriptures in the most solemn texts presents God as a unified plurality. What grammarians refer to as the "royal we" comes from God's references to Himself using the plural: "Let Us make man in Our image," (Gen. 1:26). The solemn Hebrew prayer, called the Shema Yisroel, to the "one God" uses another plurality. For "The Lord our God, the Lord is One (of plurality)" at Deuteronomy 6:4 uses neither of the expected terms, yachad or even bad, words meaning a singularity, but God's Word uses the word echad, which is one in plurality as used by God at the Tower of Babel, "the people are one," and by Joseph "the dreams of Pharaoh are one," and by Moses, "the people answered with one voice," and back again to the beginning of Genesis at the institution of marriage when God says, "and they shall become one flesh." So this foundation prayer to God does not the use the Hebrew words for one, which mean a singularity (which words are never used in the Bible referring to God), but God describes Himself in the Bible using the One of plurality. So the Shema says: the Jehovah (who is the one God) our Elohim (plural) Jehovah is a Plural Unity! And Deuteronomy 6:4 is the central passage to all theology of God. Then the Scriptures go on to teach that the three Persons of the Trinity are God the Father (Isa. 63:16; Mal. 2:10), God the Son (Ps. 2:12; Zech. 12:10 and as in the chart above), and God the Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Isa. 48:16; Isa. 6:3; Rom. 5:5). See also Mat. 28:19; Acts 5:3-4, 9; 2 Cor. 13:14, and Psalm 110:1 with Matthew 22:41-46, and verses that show the personhood of the Spirit including Heb. 10:15-17.
The Mystery in the Godhead: How can one God exist in three persons? Christian theologians have long described this as a mystery, but it is an expected mystery. Virtually everything, deep down, is a mystery. What is light (with its wave-particle duality)? What is life (with modern biology unable to agree on a definition)? What is matter (that it leaves modern physics bewildered)? What is space? What is energy? What is time? What is movement? (Is it a series of discrete stationary states?) How can the Creator bring the universe into existence from nothing? How can your non-physical spirit be attached to your physical body? How can God exist from the beginningless past? How can creatures procreate and bring everlasting beings into existence? In humility we acknowledge that virtually everything in the creation is a deep, almost unfathomable mystery. How much more mysterious would be the God who made us? If Christianity taught that there are three Gods in One God, that would be a contradiction, and by the laws of logic, therefore false. For 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and each 1 would be 1/3rd of the whole, which is anathema to trinitarian theology. But by analogizing God with math we see that the number line lacks sufficient multidimensionality and points us to the 3-dimensionality of space and an appropriate anaology wherein 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. And likewise, if Christianity taught that there are three Persons in One Person, that also would be false. But Christianity teaches that there are three Persons in One God, and while being a deep mystery (what isn't?), that is no contradiction.
Note the pronouns Him and He which are proof-positive that these cannot be referring to one God in three persons, as well as the word alone - meaning no other persons whatsoever.
1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside Him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]
3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
8. 1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.
13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one.
20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him.
24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
When you start with the assumption that "alone" means "no other persons whatsoever", you've committed the fallacy of begging the question.
Amen!
Amen!
Did you mean to put this below?
Amen!
Trinitarians are, indeed, monotheistic. There is only one God. He is three Persons.
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
There is no other God besides the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
God alone is LORD!
Amen!
Beside God there is no other!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
The LORD God is Savior, there is no other.
Amen!
Amen!
"Name" here means "authority."
He alone will be king over all the earth. He will be the one ruling over all.
Amen!
Amen!
Did you notice the "AND Jesus Christ"?
Meaning, the Father, whom is being spoken of in verse 3, is NOT Jesus Christ, whom [the Father] has sent.
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
He is not multiple gods! He is ONE GOD!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
------------
So when do you start posting verses that DISAGREE with my position?
Because every single one of those verses affirms the trinitarian position, or at best, does not disprove it.[/B]
P.S. Also, your formatting is atrocious. You complain about having to read large portions of Scripture, yet you can't even format short verses properly? Hypocrite.
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
@Old Hat: <NO ANSWER, STILL>
Either you're too embarrassed to tell us which of those three persons you are referring to by your word "God", or you are not even referring to one of them. Calling the question "silly" does not hide the fact that it makes you look silly by your failure and inability to deal with it rationally. Answer the question or get lost, you lying, Christ-hating heretic/troll.
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
Man, you weren't joking about your irrational hatred of paragraphs!
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
When you quote this text, to which one of these three persons are you referring by your word "Him":
- The Father?
- The Son?
- The Holy Spirit?
Old Hat
Member
You and I have done this in the past.
I eventually allowed you to believe what you insist on believing then as well.
I can't force you to see the Truth.
In fact, the Bible declares that you CAN'T see it (Him) unless He chooses for you to so ... it is what it is.
All I can do is pray for you, feel sorry for you and keep teaching around, and despite, you.
Such is life.