The fossil record shows there never was evolution.

Elia

Well-known member
Maybe you would like to respond to Gould's rebuttal of this book?

Bs"d

There is no rebuttal. As Gould himself says, he is not qualified to comment on it, much less to rebut it.

I read "Earth in Upheaval", and it cannot be rebutted. It is just a whole lot of observations, which cannot be rebutted. The facts are the facts. You cannot rebut facts.

Here is an excerpt of the Foreword of Earth in Upheaval. It is tailor made for you guys:

In Worlds in Collison I presented the chronicles of two the very last series of such catastrophes, those that visited our earth in the second and first millennia before the present era. Since these upheavals occurred in historical times, when the art of writing had already been perfected in the centers of ancient civilization, I described them mainly from historical documents, relying on celestial charts, calendars, and sundials and water clocks discovered by archaeologists,and drawing also upon classical literature, the sacred literature of East and West, the epics of the northern and the oral traditions of from races, primitive peoples Lapland to the South Seas. Geological vestiges of the events narrated in documents and traditions were indicated only here and there, when I felt that the immediate testimony of the rocks must be presented along with the historical evidence. I closed that description of cataclysmic events with a promise to attempt, at a later date, the reconstruction of similar global catastrophes of earlier times, one of them being the Deluge.

I had intended, after piecing together the history of these earlier global upheavals, to present geological and paleontological material to support the testimony of man. But the reception of Worlds in Collision by certain scientific groups persuaded me, before reviving the pageant of earlier catastrophes, to present at least some of the evidence of the rocks, which is as insistent as that carried down to our times by written records and by word of mouth. This testimony is never given in metaphors; and as with the pages of the Old Testament or of the Iliad, nothing can be changed in it. Pebbles and rocks and mountains and the bottom of the sea will bear witness. Do they know of the days, recent and ancient, when the harmony of this world was interrupted by the forces of nature? Have they entombed innumerable creatures and encased them in rock? Have they seen the ocean moving on continents and continents under water? Was this earth and the sliding of its seas showered with stones and covered expanse by ashes? Were its forests, uprooted by hurricanes and set afire, covered by tides carrying sand and debris from the bottom of the oceans? It takes millions of years for a log to be turned into coal but only a single hour when burning. Here lies the core of the problem: Did the earth in a slow a added change process, year to a year and a million years to a million, the peaceful ground of nature being the broad arena of the contest of in which the fittest survived? Or did it throngs, happen, too, that the very arena itself, infuriated, rose the contestants and made an end of their against battles?

I present here some pages from the book of nature. I have excluded from them all references to ancient literature, traditions, and folklore; and this I have done with intent, so that careless critics cannot decry the entire work as "tales and legends." Stones and bones are the witnesses. Mute as they are, only they will testify, clearly and unequivocally. Yet dull ears and dimmed eyes will deny this evidence, and the dimmer the vision, the louder and more insistent will be the voices of protestation.

This book was not written for those who swear by the verba magistri, the holiness of their school wisdom; and they may debate it without reading it, as well.

I. Velikovsky
 
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Elia

Well-known member
Even Gould said he wasn't qualified on most of it, but extrapolated from his own area of study of paleontology and biology. So even Gould agrees with you to an extent. I always found Gould to be a conundrum. He at times said things that would favor an Evolutionist, but he also challenged his own colleagues a fair share of the time and was quotable by creationists because of it.

Bs"d

Everybody who is not struck with total blindness, should know now that the fossil record shows the opposite of evolution, namely STASIS, non-change, non-evolution.

Everything new always pops up suddenly, without any link to supposed predecessors.

The fossil record rips the evolution theory apart.
 

Sonnet

New member
Bs"d

There is no rebuttal. As Gould himself says, he is not qualified to comment on it, much less to rebut it.

I read "Earth in Upheaval", and it cannot be rebutted. It is just a whole lot of observations, which cannot be rebutted. The facts are the facts. You cannot rebut facts.

But Gould rejects the notion that the Devonian red sandstone formation occurred as per a single event. Velikosky is arguing it was a catastrophic event.

That is a rebuttal.
 

Sonnet

New member
Bs"d

Everybody who is not struck with total blindness, should know now that the fossil record shows the opposite of evolution, namely STASIS, non-change, non-evolution.

Everything new always pops up suddenly, without any link to supposed predecessors.

The fossil record rips the evolution theory apart.

Surely you don't think it is that obvious?
 

Sonnet

New member
It takes millions of years for a log to be turned into coal but only a single hour when burning. (Velikovsky)
 

Elia

Well-known member
It takes millions of years for a log to be turned into coal but only a single hour when burning. (Velikovsky)

Bs"d

https://answersingenesis.org/biology/plants/how-did-we-get-all-this-coal/

Converting Vegetation to Coal

Once buried, how quickly could this vegetation be compacted and converted to coal? Laboratory experiments have successfully produced coal-like materials rapidly, under conditions intended to simulate the conditions when actual coal beds accumulated.

A research team at the Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois made material resembling coal by heating plant materials with clay minerals at 302°F (150°C) for two to eight months in the absence of oxygen. After a series of such experiments, the team concluded that coal can be produced directly from plant materials via thermal reactions speeded up by the clay minerals in only one to four months.8 Other experiments have also confirmed that clay particles act as chemical catalysts in a rapid coal-forming process.9 It is thus significant that clay minerals often account for up to 80 percent of the non-plant matter in actual coal.

Subsequent experiments have more closely simulated natural geologic conditions, with temperatures of only 257°F (125°C) and lower pressures (equivalent to burial under 5,905 feet [1,800 meters] of wet sediments).10 After only 75 days, the original plant and wood materials still transformed into coal material, comparable chemically to coal from the same area of Indonesia.

Because these experiments simulated natural conditions, we can be confident that the coal-forming process is rapid and requires only months. So there is no reason to insist that coal formation requires millions of years.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Even Gould said he wasn't qualified on most of it, but extrapolated from his own area of study of paleontology and biology. So even Gould agrees with you to an extent.

Bs"d

Gould totally agrees with me that there is no evolution to be found in the fossil record, but only STASIS, non-change = non-evolution, and sudden appearance of new species:

“Stasis, or nonchange, of most fossil species during their lengthy geological lifespans was tacitly acknowledged by all paleontologists, but almost never studied explicitly because prevailing theory treated stasis as uninteresting nonevidence for nonevolution. ...The overwhelming prevalence of stasis became an embarrassing feature of the fossil record, best left ignored as a manifestation of nothing (that is, nonevolution)."

Gould, Stephen J., "Cordelia's Dilemma," Natural History, 1993, p. 15



Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. ...The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1. Stasis.Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change I usually limited and directionless.
2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.


Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182


"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."

Gould, Stephen J., "Is a New and General Theory of Evolution Emerging?," 1982, p. 140


"All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt. Gradualists usually extract themselves from this dilemma by invoking the extreme imperfection of the fossil record."

Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p.189



Gould and Eldredge were the first ones who dared to say out loud these facts. For almost 150 years the public was lied to by "science" about how wonderfully the fossil record matched Darwin.
 
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Sonnet

New member
Bs"d

Gould totally agrees with me that there is no evolution to be found in the fossil record, but only STASIS, non-change = non-evolution, and sudden appearance of new species:

“Stasis, or nonchange, of most fossil species during their lengthy geological lifespans was tacitly acknowledged by all paleontologists, but almost never studied explicitly because prevailing theory treated stasis as uninteresting nonevidence for nonevolution. ...The overwhelming prevalence of stasis became an embarrassing feature of the fossil record, best left ignored as a manifestation of nothing (that is, nonevolution)."

Gould, Stephen J., "Cordelia's Dilemma," Natural History, 1993, p. 15



Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. ...The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1. Stasis.Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change I usually limited and directionless.
2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.


Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182


"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."

Gould, Stephen J., "Is a New and General Theory of Evolution Emerging?," 1982, p. 140


"All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt. Gradualists usually extract themselves from this dilemma by invoking the extreme imperfection of the fossil record."

Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p.189



Gould and Eldredge were the first ones who dared to say out loud these facts. For almost 150 years the public was lied to by "science" about how wonderfully the fossil record matched Darwin.

Isn't it true that most paleontologists reject P.E. and still hold out for the evidence of gradualism?
 

Elia

Well-known member
Isn't it true that most paleontologists reject P.E. and still hold out for the evidence of gradualism?

Bs"d

No.

Most agree with PE:

"The Eldredge-Gould concept of punctuated equilibria has gained wide acceptance among paleontologists. It attempts to account for the following paradox: Within continuously sampled lineages, one rarely finds the gradual morphological trends predicted by Darwinian evolution; rather, change occurs with the sudden appearance of new, well-differentiated species. Eldredge and Gould equate such appearances with speciation, although the details of these events are not preserved. ... The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground."

Ricklefs, Robert E., "Paleontologists Confronting Macroevolution," Science, vol. 199, 1978, p. 59

Robert E Ricklefs is an evolutionist and professor biology at the University of Missouri te St. Louis:
http://www.umsl.edu/~ricklefs
 

Sonnet

New member
Bs"d

No.

Most agree with PE:

"The Eldredge-Gould concept of punctuated equilibria has gained wide acceptance among paleontologists. It attempts to account for the following paradox: Within continuously sampled lineages, one rarely finds the gradual morphological trends predicted by Darwinian evolution; rather, change occurs with the sudden appearance of new, well-differentiated species. Eldredge and Gould equate such appearances with speciation, although the details of these events are not preserved. ...The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground."

Ricklefs, Robert E., "Paleontologists Confronting Macroevolution," Science, vol. 199, 1978, p. 59

Robert E Ricklefs is an evolutionist and professor biology at the University of Missouri te St. Louis:
http://www.umsl.edu/~ricklefs

Yeh - sorry, I did read that just after I made the post.

Interesting that Ricklefs admits that PE is unsubstantiated:

The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground.

Not sure what he means here:

apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa)
 
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chair

Well-known member
Bs"d

... the fossil record shows the opposite of evolution, namely STASIS, non-change, non-evolution.

Everything new always pops up suddenly, ...

"STASIS, non-change"..."Everything new always..."

Do you ever read what you write?
 

Sonnet

New member
Bs"d

Gould totally agrees with me that there is no evolution to be found in the fossil record, but only STASIS, non-change = non-evolution, and sudden appearance of new species:

“Stasis, or nonchange, of most fossil species during their lengthy geological lifespans was tacitly acknowledged by all paleontologists, but almost never studied explicitly because prevailing theory treated stasis as uninteresting nonevidence for nonevolution. ...The overwhelming prevalence of stasis became an embarrassing feature of the fossil record, best left ignored as a manifestation of nothing (that is, nonevolution)."

Gould, Stephen J., "Cordelia's Dilemma," Natural History, 1993, p. 15



Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. ...The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism:
1. Stasis.Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change I usually limited and directionless.
2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.


Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182


"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."

Gould, Stephen J., "Is a New and General Theory of Evolution Emerging?," 1982, p. 140


"All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt. Gradualists usually extract themselves from this dilemma by invoking the extreme imperfection of the fossil record."

Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p.189



Gould and Eldredge were the first ones who dared to say out loud these facts. For almost 150 years the public was lied to by "science" about how wonderfully the fossil record matched Darwin.

What about this: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils
 

Jose Fly

New member
Yeh - sorry, I did read that just after I made the post.

Interesting that Ricklefs admits that PE is unsubstantiated:

The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground.

Not sure what he means here:

apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa)

Creationists like to dishonestly misrepresent PE...as we can see in this thread.

In simple terms, PE is about applying modes of speciation that are observed and supported by population genetics to the fossil record. See, when Gould used the term "Darwinism" he was specifically referring to phyletic gradualism, where new species arise when an existing species gradually, and as a whole, evolves into the new species. IOW, species A gives rise to species B over a long period of time, and the entire population of species A evolves into species B.

But clear back in the early 1900's, population geneticists knew that probably wasn't the primary way in which new species evolved. Instead, they knew most speciation happens when a subset of a larger population becomes isolated (e.g., geographically or behaviorally) and eventually evolves into a new species, while the original species they broke away from stays the same.

Then as biologists began to observe more speciation events, they realized the "subset breaking away" mode was more common and could happen more quickly than the Darwinistic phyletic gradualism model.

What Gould and Eldredge did was apply the "subset breaking away" model to paleontology. So it wasn't anything new or some sort of attempt to cover anything up, rather it was them telling their fellow paleontologists "Hey guys...population geneticists and biologists mostly use this PE model of speciation, but for some reason we paleontologists keep interpreting the fossil record through phyletic gradualism (Darwinism)."

So really, that's all there is to PE. Just applying a different type of speciation to the fossil record.

And when we look at actual patterns in the fossil record, we actually see both Darwinistic gradualism and PE. A good example of Darwinistic gradualism is the foraminifera...

Tony Arnold and Bill Parker compiled what may be the largest, most complete set of data on the evolutionary history of any group of organisms, marine or otherwise. The two scientists amassed something that their land-based colleagues only dreamed about: An intact fossil record with no missing links.

"It's all here--a virtually complete evolutionary record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this group of organisms has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."

What Arnold and Parker found is almost a textbook example of gradualism at work.

We've literally seen hundreds of speciation events," syas Arnold. "This allows us to check for patterns, to determine what exactly is going on. We can quickly tell whether something is a recurring phenomenon--a pattern--or whether it's just an anomally. This way, we cannot only look for the same things that have been observed in living organisms, but we can see just how often these things really happen in the environment over an enormous period of time.

But in the near-perfect record exhibited by the forams studied at FSU, the highly touted Eldredge-Gould theory of punctuated equilibrium apparently doesn't work. The record reveals a robust, highly branched evolutionary tree, complete with Darwin's predicted "dead ends"--varieties that lead nowhere--and a profusion of variability in sizes and body shapes. Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion.

But in the horse fossil record, we see both PE and Darwinistic gradualism...

New species can arise through several different evolutionary mechanisms.

Sometimes, new species split off suddenly from their ancestors (e.g., Miohippus from Mesohippus) and then co-existed with those ancestors. Other species came into being through anagenetic transformation of the ancestor, until the ancestor had changed appearance enough to be given a new name (e.g. Equus from Dinohippus). Sometimes only one or a few species arose; sometimes there were long periods of stasis (e.g. Hyracotherium throughout the early Eocene); and sometimes there were enormous bursts of evolution, when new ecological opportunities arose (the merychippine radiation). Again, evolution proceeds according to the ecological pressures facing the individuals of a species and on the variation present within that species. Evolution takes place in the real world, with diverse rates and modes, and cannot be reduced to a single, simple process.

Now don't fool yourself here and think that any of this will ever be at all relevant to the creationists in this thread. As you've seen, even though they like to spout off about "no transitional fossils", none of them can even tell you what they think a "transitional fossil" is, and when they're provided examples of what most normal people would think of as a transitional, they just mindlessly wave them away without much more than "No it isn't".

But that's merely the dishonest nature of creationism manifesting itself in the behaviors of its advocates.
 
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