Sonnet
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So much so that many Christians have made it a legend.
It doesn't read like a legend though.
The fossil record shows there never was evolution.
- Thread starter Elia
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So much so that many Christians have made it a legend.
It doesn't read like a legend though.
Sonnet
New member
Hebrews 11:1ff
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6nd without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
Where would we stop if Noah and the flood was just a legend?
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6nd without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
Where would we stop if Noah and the flood was just a legend?
Elia
Well-known member
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Thank you for kicking in this open door.
Do evo's believe God created life? Or do they believe in abiogenesis?
Long or short, fact is that all proof for it is lacking.
Who says he has one?
Elia
Well-known member
alwight
New member
Wrong question.
I don't represent all evolutionists while some believe in gods and some don't.
Abiogenesis only means life beginning from non-life and has been used in a religious context in the past. I don't think it needs any belief since life patently did start, but how it did doesn't really matter to Darwinian evolution since it is about what happened after the first life appeared.
"Proof" is not science.
Since he was described as an "evolutionist" then presumably he must have his own version of Darwinian evolution that is different from Gould's?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Nonsense. The theory or relativity is proven, therefore that is now the law of relativity.
All empirical science can be proven with experiments. Everything that can not be proven with experiments is not science, but hypothesis or philosophy.
Now you are joking, right?
They didn't.
Dr. Carl Werner has written a book that gives details of Scientifically Incorrect Fossils, fossils that have been found in the wrong layers.
This book is filled with examples of Scientifically Incorrect fossils (fossils that should not exist in the layers with fossils that are O.K.)
Living Fossils Evolution: The Grand Experiment Vol. 2 Dr. Carl Werner New Leaf Press ISBN 13:978-0-89221-691-8 ISBN 10: 0-89221-691-3
p. 160 Turtles with Dinosaur fossils
Birds with dinosaurs
p. 163 Dr. Strickberger “Unfortunately, no feathered intermediates appear between Archaeopteryx and its dinosaur ancestors, nor do further birdlike fossils show up until about ten million years later in the Cretaceous period. These Cretaceous [dinosaur-age] fossils are exclusively those of aquatic birds or shore birds, a few already representative of modern groups such as flamingos, loons, cormorants, and sandpipers, although some, such as Hesperornis, still retained reptile-like teeth.”
p. 164 Dr. Paul Sereno, from the University of Chicago . . . He suggested that not only parrots but penguins and owls had been found in dinosaur rock layers too.
p. 166 Dr. Stidham revealed several more birds from the dinosaur era.
p. 167 Dr. Stidham in Nature “most or all of the major modern bird groups were present in the Cretaceous.”
p. 168 Glaucous-winged Gull (Dinosaur name Larus glaucescens) lived with Pterodactylus
Mammals and Dinosaurs
p. 173 Dr. Zhe-Xi Luo at the Carnegie Museum of Natural-History “Nearly 100 Complete Dinosaur-Era Mammal Skeletons Found”
p. 173 Dr. Burge curator of vertebrate paleontology, College of Eastern Utah Prehistoric Museum “We find mammals in almost all of our [dinosaur dig] sites.
p. 176 Hedgehog-Like Mammal Found in Dinosaur Rock Layers
p. 178 Possum-Like Mammal Found in Dinosaur Rock Layers
p. 182 Other Mammals Found in Dinosaur Layers
p. 183 Modern Plants found in Dinosaur Layers
Dr. Brad Harrub has documented evidence of a dinosaur that was found in a mammal stomach.
Their layers are far from pure.
Cambrian Fossils Found in 'Wrong' Place
by Brian Thomas, M.S.
http://www.icr.org/article/5469/
Many extinct and strange creatures were only known from Cambrian rocks--until now. Newly discovered fossils in higher, more "recent" rock layers in Morocco show "remarkable preservation" and hold a host of what were for decades considered exclusively Cambrian sea creatures. These fossil finds were quite unexpected by evolutionists, who had pictured a different evolutionary scenario.
In the geologic timescale, the "Cambrian period" refers to the lowermost densely fossil-bearing rocks. These rocks record the sudden appearance of creatures, with representatives of almost every living phylum found fully formed and with no signs of evolutionary transition, which is an enigma for evolution.1
The soft-bodied creatures found in Cambrian strata were considered stem or basal creatures. They were supposed to have been the worms, arthropods, and other odd creatures that "gave rise" to subsequent body forms found in upper strata. Although none of them ever showed clear transition toward the more familiar sea animals that are found in higher strata or are living today, they were considered to be evolutionary predecessors because they were thought to be exclusive to Cambrian rocks.
Now all of that has changed. A recent study in Nature reported that some of the same soft-bodied "Cambrian" sea creatures were found in Morocco--preserved in brilliant reds and yellows because of the oxidation of pyrite that occurred on their soft tissues while they were being fossilized--in a higher layer, mixed in with "later" animals.2 This discovery erases the argument for evolution, which relies on the absence of these creatures in higher layers to support the assumption that they "diverged" into "later" life forms--and eventually into people.
This find forces evolutionists to add a new belief in order to support their overall concept of past life. Before, evolutionists believed that some creatures evolved into others--an easy story to assert but one that lacked the expected transitional forms in the fossil record.3 Now, they must also believe that some creatures evolved into others, and at the same time spawned more of themselves in "parallel." They must insist that the "stem" soft-bodied animals "gave rise" to newer life forms found in higher sediments, as well as to populations that continued to produce more forms just like themselves.
Since both of these "parallel" populations lived alongside one another, instead of in separate periods of time, then why are the Cambrian creatures not typically found as fossils in higher strata? The study's authors said, "The rarity of Burgess Shale-type taxa [organisms] in post-Middle Cambrian rocks elsewhere probably results from a lack of preservation rather than the extinction and replacement of these faunas during the later Cambrian."2 (The Burgess Shale Formation is widely known for soft-tissue preservation in its fossils.)
This one brief statement rewrites a foundational part of the evolutionary story. Instead of going extinct because they evolved into subsequent forms, it must now be believed that they evolved into other forms despite what these new fossils show--not transitional forms evolving, but stable forms persisting. This find forces the evolutionary story to take too many twists and turns to be true.
On the other hand, if God created all creatures during the same week-long miraculous event, and if God subsequently judged the world in a globe-covering watery catastrophe, then one would expect to find exactly what has been described: ancient sea creatures that were fully-formed and coexisted in time, buried together in mud in a massive, worldwide graveyard.
Dinosaur Fossil Found in Mammal's Stomach
In China, scientists have identified the fossilized remains of a tiny dinosaur in the stomach of a mammal. Scientists say the animal's last meal probably is the first proof that mammals hunted small dinosaurs some 130 million years ago.
It contradicts conventional evolutionary theory that early mammals couldn't possibly attack and eat a dinosaur because they were timid, chipmunk-sized creatures that scurried in the looming shadow of the giant reptiles.
Are There Human Fossils in the "Wrong Place" for Evolution?
Geological column is sometimes out of order (Talk.Origins)
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
As we all know, as a general rule, evo's don't believe in God. They believe in evolution because they don't want to believe in God.
It needs a tremendous amount of believe, because Pasteur proved already in 1860 that life does not spontaneously form from dead matter.
It matters a lot, because the purpose for the whole evo theory is to deny God. And therefore they also need an explanation for the beginning of life.
Science can be proven. If not, it's not science, but philosophy.
No.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
It would only be that if that assumption of "fossils never found in the wrong strata" were correct.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Christians didn't make it into a legend. The Biblical flood story is 1300 years older than Christianity.
EVERY old culture has its own flood story. Also indians in the Amazone jungle who were never in contact with civilization or Christianity.
There are more than 300 flood traditions registered by researchers all over the world. Almost all of 'm contain common elements which can also be found in the Biblical flood story.
The only reasonable reason for the flood tradition being present among all cultures and peoples all over the world is a collective memory of a real event.
6days
New member
That is certainly easy to believe, since we are told that from the time we watch Dora the Explorer until the time we finish university. However the various layers along with polystrate fossils, and many thick coal seams are excellent evidence of the global flood. (Many other evidences also).Sonnet said:
The massive disruption of the earths surface, along with volcanic activity (and possibly asteroid hits) world wide during the flood would certainly have produced many layers. Keep in mind the main flood lasted almost a year, which in all likelihood started and finished with massive tsunamis rolling around the globe. Some geologists such as John Morris think the effects of rising mountains, and water draining of the continents(Ps 104:7,8) may have lasted a couple hundred years. Science always supports God's Word
6days
New member
I could provide quotes from several. One of my favorites is Dr. John Sanford, geneticist, professor, inventor, 80 peer reviewed articles. I might quote him later today, but I will start with.....Sonnet said:
Dr. Gary Parker, PhD biology with cognate in geology. "For me "evolution" was much more than just a scientific theory. It was a total world and life view, an alternate religion, a substitute for God.... I knew where I came from and I knew where I was going.
"Let's face it. Evolution is an exciting and appealing idea! A lot of scientific evidence can be used to support it. Perhaps most importantly for me and many others, evolution means there is no God, no Creator who sets the rules....
" I didn't just believe evolution; I embraced it enthusiastically. And I taught it enthusiastically. I considered it one of my major missions as a science Professor to help rid my students of any pre-scientific superstitions such as Christianity. ... I was almost fired once for teaching evolution so vigorously that I had Christian students crying in my class!"
Then, several Christians began sharing the gospel with Gary, including a newly-hired biology professor at the college where he was working. He says " my strong belief in evolution was a huge stumbling block to my accepting the good news of New Life In Christ. I thought evolution had proved the Bible was wrong and that there was no God out there...
"For three years I used all the evolutionary arguments I knew so well. For three years I lost every scientific argument. Reluctant and surprised I finally concluded that what we read in God's word is the surest guide to understanding what we see in God's world."
Gary Parker, 'How Real Science Reveals the Hand of God'.
Jose Fly
New member
Right...they should have violated the very principle you agreed was vital to conducting proper science.
uh..... it was YOU who made the point about it being painful to ditch your beliefs. I provided an example.
Um....do you even check these guys out before you cite them?
Dr. Emil Silvestru
After becoming a Christian he quickly realized that the ‘millions of years’ interpretation, so common in geology, was not compatible with Genesis. ‘Once I became a Christian,’ Emil says, ‘I knew I had to “tune up” my scientific knowledge with the Scriptures.’
‘Although philosophically and ethically I accepted a literal Genesis from my conversion, at first I was unable to match it with my “technical” side.’
After becoming a Christian he quickly realized that the ‘millions of years’ interpretation, so common in geology, was not compatible with Genesis. ‘Once I became a Christian,’ Emil says, ‘I knew I had to “tune up” my scientific knowledge with the Scriptures.’
‘Although philosophically and ethically I accepted a literal Genesis from my conversion, at first I was unable to match it with my “technical” side.’
So as with Sanford before, Silvestru converted to Christianity first, and then adopted young-earth creationism. Also, if you look at the list of publications on that page we see the same thing as Sanford, i.e., a very productive scientific career while operating under the evolutionary and old-earth framework, which all came to a complete halt once he converted to young-earth creationism.
So again, thanks for providing yet another illustration of just how useless creationism is. :thumb:
Jose Fly
New member
A transitional fossil would be a specimen that exhibits a mixture of characteristics from different closely-related taxa.
Anyone disagree with that?
Jose Fly
New member
One of my favorites too!
Sanford's career shows the stark difference between creationism and evolution/old earth. While operating under the framework of evolution/old earth, Sanford authored those "80 peer reviewed articles", invented the gene gun, and was an overall very productive scientist.
But then he converted to Christianity, adopted the young-earth creationist belief, and suddenly his scientific production came to a complete and total halt. He literally has not contributed a single thing since this switch.
An excellent example of the utter irrelevance of creationism! :up:
Lon
Well-known member
Subduction does push up layers. The time factor, I believe, is what we tend to scrutinize (either with or without theologians).
I asked often in my geology class why the figures so many 'million' years was given. It didn't seem the exact science to me, that it was purported to be (inept professor?) :idunno:
6days
New member
We are so shocked you think that!JoseFly said:
Creationism and evolutionism are belief systems about the past. While creationism was largely responsible for the rise of modern science, evolutionism has hindered science, increased racism and was largely responsible for the holocaust.
genuineoriginal
New member
And I contend that is a false assumption based on not understanding the forces involved.
Even if you think the flood was only rain water coming down, you would have to accept that the soil from different areas would take different amounts of time to be washed away into a basin.
Because of the difference in the soil and the time of travel it would form into layers that would be different than if all the material entered the basin at the same time suspended in water and then settled at different rates.
We have a recent example of how hundreds of feet of sediment layers can be formed quickly in a small area.
_____
30 Years Later, the Lessons from Mount St. Helens
. . . For example, the rapid outflow from the volcano caused massive amounts of sediment to fill in the entire valley adjacent to the mountain. And a 1982 dam breach of the snow-melt lake that had formed in the mountain's crater caused a catastrophic flood that tore a gash through those fresh deposits from two years earlier. To this day, the resulting steep-sided canyon walls can be seen,2 showing that horizontal sediment layers hundreds of feet thick were formed within hours during the eruption. This sparks the question: what other layered sedimentary rocks in earth's crust were formed rapidly?
. . . Because of the Mount St. Helens eruption, scientists know that sedimentary rock layers can form in only hours, rather than requiring millions of years. It also showed that radiometric dating is not necessarily accurate and that God gave animals and plants the ability to rapidly re-colonize barren land. And the improved seismic prediction techniques that Mount St. Helens facilitated have also increased scientific understanding of earth's geologic activities. . . .
30 Years Later, the Lessons from Mount St. Helens
. . . For example, the rapid outflow from the volcano caused massive amounts of sediment to fill in the entire valley adjacent to the mountain. And a 1982 dam breach of the snow-melt lake that had formed in the mountain's crater caused a catastrophic flood that tore a gash through those fresh deposits from two years earlier. To this day, the resulting steep-sided canyon walls can be seen,2 showing that horizontal sediment layers hundreds of feet thick were formed within hours during the eruption. This sparks the question: what other layered sedimentary rocks in earth's crust were formed rapidly?
. . . Because of the Mount St. Helens eruption, scientists know that sedimentary rock layers can form in only hours, rather than requiring millions of years. It also showed that radiometric dating is not necessarily accurate and that God gave animals and plants the ability to rapidly re-colonize barren land. And the improved seismic prediction techniques that Mount St. Helens facilitated have also increased scientific understanding of earth's geologic activities. . . .
However, we are talking about a global flood instead of a regional flood.
The theory I find most credible is the asteroid/comet theory, which has the earth being hit by a group of asteroids or a comet, throwing large amounts of water into the air and causing huge tsunamis to repeatedly wash over Pangaea.
Some of the land would be exposed until the next tsunami came and the rain only lasted 40 days and nights of the year long flooding.
After the flood, some of the water would be trapped in inland seas that would be released centuries later to cause more changes to the landscape, and the temperature fluctuations causing the ice ages in the centuries following the flood would also need to be taken into account.
genuineoriginal
New member
Fossils that are found in the "wrong" strata are not accepted as being from the strata they are found in, and an explanation is crafted to preserve the illusion that fossils are always found in the "right" strata.
_____
Evolution Encyclopedia Vol. 2 FOSSILS AND STRATA Part 5
MIXED-UP FOSSILS Have you ever noticed that, on the standard strata time charts, certain fossils will always be in certain strata? That is another generalization in the evolutionary theory that does not prove to be correct. Fossils are frequently found in the wrong places, especially far below the strata where they are first supposed to have "evolved" into existence.
There are three ways that the experts deal with to this problem: (1) Ignore the evidence. (2) When small numbers of fossils are found in solid rock below their proper strata, they are said to have been "downwashed" through the solid rock into lower strata. That is, they slipped, slid, or fell through solid rock into lower levels. (3) When only a few are located below their theoretical strata, they are said to have "reworked" themselves into the higher strata. More detail on this will be found near the end of this chapter (appendix 14).
"Reworking" and "downwash" are used to explain a few fossils not in agreement with the theory; "overthrusts," to be discussed shortly, are used to explain much larger numbers of such fossils.
Evolution Encyclopedia Vol. 2 FOSSILS AND STRATA Part 5
MIXED-UP FOSSILS Have you ever noticed that, on the standard strata time charts, certain fossils will always be in certain strata? That is another generalization in the evolutionary theory that does not prove to be correct. Fossils are frequently found in the wrong places, especially far below the strata where they are first supposed to have "evolved" into existence.
There are three ways that the experts deal with to this problem: (1) Ignore the evidence. (2) When small numbers of fossils are found in solid rock below their proper strata, they are said to have been "downwashed" through the solid rock into lower strata. That is, they slipped, slid, or fell through solid rock into lower levels. (3) When only a few are located below their theoretical strata, they are said to have "reworked" themselves into the higher strata. More detail on this will be found near the end of this chapter (appendix 14).
"Fossils frequently occur where they are not 'supposed' to. It is then claimed that either the fauna [animals] or flora [plants] have lived longer than previously known (simple extension of stratigraphic range) or that the fossil has been reworked. In 'reworking,' it is claimed that the fossil has been eroded away from a much older host rock and has thus been incorporated into a rock of more recent age. The reciprocal situation is `downwash,' where it is claimed that an organism has been washed down into rock much older than the time it lived and has become fossilized." John Woodmorappe, "An Anthology of Matters Significant to Creationism and Diluviology: Report 2," in Creation Research Society Quarterly, March 1982, p. 209.
"Reworking" and "downwash" are used to explain a few fossils not in agreement with the theory; "overthrusts," to be discussed shortly, are used to explain much larger numbers of such fossils.