Exacly! It is not difficult to get it. Watch out for those pro-military Christians. They don't seem to care what Jesus says or what our mission is for God's kingdom.
pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
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Exacly! It is not difficult to get it. Watch out for those pro-military Christians. They don't seem to care what Jesus says or what our mission is for God's kingdom.
Yes amen. That's why Jesus command His followers to follow Him meaning practice what He practiced on earth because that was His main mission for His Father.
Jesus is prince of peace!
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Your right. If we see a need, we should help our neighbor. More on that in a bit.
What, did God change between the Old and New Testaments? Was God really mean in the Old testament, but then in the intertestament period He went to counseling and then in the New Testament He's nice? I tell you NO!
God does not change in His righteousness, in His justness, His goodness. He requires punishment for crimes here on this earth, and punishment for sins in the hereafter.
Did Elijah do good to the 450 prophets of Baal? No, he slaughtered them. And yet God brought Him directly into heaven. Elijah must have done something right.
Now, obviously Elijah was under God's authority as a prophet, and if someone were to do such a thing today, it would be justice to try and execute them for murder.
No, he did not teach the opposite of the law. God is not arbitrary when it comes to moral law. He cannot bless those who murder because it would go against His nature.
One of the mistakes you keep making is that Jesus did not repeal the law or teach the opposite of it. He taught an extension of the law. For example, Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus said that if someone is even angry with someone without cause is in danger of judgment. Nowhere in that verse did Jesus repeal the law against murder. He only extrapolated it to the individual.
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ *But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. - Matthew 5:21-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:21-22&version=NKJV
The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) does not lay down rules for a government but principles for an upright heart.
In fact, in that very sermon, jesus made the distiction between individuals and government. (Matthew 5:25-26).
Jesus did not command the authorities to turn the other cheek or to void the law. God wants the governing authorities to uphold the law, showing no mercy to criminals (Hebrews 10:28, Romans 13:3-4).
You're right. But again, he did not repeal anything in that passage. Only taught an extension.
*“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ *But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, *that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. *For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? *And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? *Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:43-48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:43-48&version=NKJV
Marhig, is it possible to love and hate at the same time? I say it is, and that God does. He hates the sinner for being a sinner, for being unrighteous. But He also loves them enough to want them to come to Him in repentance.
This is what Jesus was saying in the passage above. He still wants us to hate our enemies for being unrighteous, but also to love them so that they come to repent. More on this in a bit.
Prison should not be used as a form of punishment, because a life sentence cannot be executed quickly.
The only three forms of punishment authorized by God in the Bible (because they can be executed swiftly) are restitution, corporal punishment (such as flogging), and the death penalty. Prison is only for holding a criminal until he can be tried and convicted.
*Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV
If Jesus repealed the law in Matthew 5:38-39, it would directly contradict what he said just 20 verses earlier:
*“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. *For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. *Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:17-19&version=NKJV
Do you think Jesus contradicted Himself?
I use the Law (and rightly so, even though I am a Christian) to show people that they cannot get to heaven by their actions, nor will God let them into heaven with what they've done already. I also use the Law to show what God is like, that he is good and just and righteous.
Except you can't make that argument from the Bible, because otherwise you would be arguing that God told His people to do wrong, and the Bible says do not do evil that Good may come of it. So if it is wrong to kill, let alone murder, God would be contradicting himself when he says that.
Jesus didn't, but He told His apostles to go out and buy weapons.
*Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. - Luke 22:36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke22:36&version=NKJV
Again, Jesus did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. He did not repeal the laws concerning executing criminals.
You're forgetting one key fact: at the time of Jesus' ministry, Israel was occupied by the Roman Empire, who, when they took over, took away the Jews' authority to punish criminals.
Had Jesus said anything other than what He did, he could have been taken to the cross prematurely. The pharisees were trying to trick Jesus into breaking the law of the land.
Actually, the word used in that verse means extortion. Don't extort people, be satisfied with your wages.
"Soldiers were also kai questioning eper?ta? · de him autos, saying leg?, “ And kai we h?meis, what tis should we do poie??” · kai He said leg? to them autos, “ Do not m?deis extort diasei? money from anyone, or m?de accuse sykophante? them falsely ; and kai be content arke? with · ho your hymeis wages ops?nion.” " - Luke 3:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke3:14&version=MOUNCE
This is the only time in the New Testament that this word "diasei?" is used.
The sermon on the mount was to show how the individual with an upright heart should act. it does not lay down rules for a government.
Talking to Christians about spiritual battles. Would you use something physical to fight something that is not?
"Those born of God"
You seem to forget that not everyone is a Christian or Jew. You forget that because of that fact, there will always be wars and unrest until Christ's returns to reign on the earth.
As I implied above, anything in scripture that tells us to be loving is for an upright heart.
Replied to this argument above.
No one here has said that we should start killing for no reason. That is murder.
However, killing a convicted murderer, rapist, adulterer, etc, is not murder, and indeed is perfectly acceptable, and in fact meets the needs of justice. The government is the only entity that has the authority to do so. However, they can delegate the actual responsibility to carry out the execution of justice to whomever they choose.
Can we get back to building my point now? Perhaps we can refer back to this post while we do.
So Marhig:
You answered yes. You are correct.
You answered yes. You are correct.
Now, my third question.
What is the most successful way of bringing someone to repentance according to the Bible?
(Sorry for the long post)
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marhig
Well-known member
Hello,
Ok, I don't see the Bible you do, I see it as very spiritual, although I wouldn't go into that here. But I see things very different than many here.
Now about what you have said, I'll just try and keep this short.
I believe that there will be wars, and there will executions etc. But those things are of the world. And the laws are for the lawless. Those who have the righteousness of Christ, should not be lawless as we should by living by the spirit, who will be bringing the law into our hearts and minds, and we should be living by the word of God, and the spirit should be showing us our sins within, and helping us to overcome them, cleaning our hearts out, I know this is true because I'm living it and I know it's the truth because God has helped me to overcome so many things in my life and he's set me free.
So I believe that war and capital punishment is of this world and is for the lawless, so those of the world will judge the lawless of the world, and those in the old testament were under the law because they had not yet received the holy spirit. We are not of this world once we are born of God, and we should not be involved with those things, we should be more concerned about bringing Gods love and word to others and live it out before them, with the hope that they will believe.
We didn't see Jesus and his apostles (once they they received the Spirit) brandishing weapons and killing people, nor killing people by capital punishment. And those who follow him and who live by the Spirit should be of the same heart and mind. Jesus Christ is our example to follow.
As for your third question and bringing someone to repentance, we can only bare witness to the truth, we can't make anyone repent, we bring the word of God to others and we live it out through Christ. And those who hear the truth have a choice to believe it not, the word of God judges, and God is the righteous judge of us all, as only he knows the depth of our hearts.
And as I said before, if the world truly followed Jesus there would be no war and no capital punishment!
I don't think that there is anymore to say, I think we have covered all that we believe in. I won't change, because I know in my heart that the way I believe is the truth. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
Except there's something even more powerful to bring sinners to repentance. I want to see if you can figure it out before I tell you. It has to do with Christ's crucifixion. And no, it's not love.
And how do you suppose we bring the world to Christ? Should we try to love them to Christ? What happens when they don't want your love, when they don't want Christ, or worse, what happens when they, in the name of their own god, bring weapons to bear on you, all because you tried to love them? Forget the rest of the world for a moment, and lets look inward, at the USA. Our country is fraught with people who hate God, hate us Christians, and they love their sin. Do you think that loving them will really bring them to Christ? No. They will hate you and God even more so because you tried to love them. They have made laws to make it harder for Christians to spread their love to others, while still allowing their hatred of God to grow stronger.
See, the world hates God, and God knows that, He doesn't expect there NOT to be wars and unrest and disagreements. He expects it. But He still expects us to be able to function in such a society, and the only way we can do that is to use this tool I'm asking you about.
I enjoy our discussion, I'm glad you're willing to talk things out. I have at least one more question for you to fully establish the principle I'm trying to show you, but I can't do that until you are made aware of the answer to my third question.
So try again, please. What is the most effective way to bring someone to repentance? (Hint: it's not love, or at least, love is remotely related)
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marhig
Well-known member
You'd be surprised at what the love of God can achieve!
There's nothing more powerful than the the love and word of God, the word given direct to the heart by the holy spirit gives us what we need to give out to others there and then. The word of God is the ministry of reconciliation.
Right I'm off out
Well, at least you tried.You'd be surprised at what the love of God can achieve!
There's nothing more powerful than the the love and word of God, the word given direct to the heart by the holy spirit gives us what we need to give out to others there and then. The word of God is the ministry of reconciliation.
Right I'm off out
The answer is the Law. God's moral law is what we christians are to use to bring sinners to repentance.
In fact, it's so effective, that 1 of every 2 people who are condemned by the law come to repentance. God's love means nothing to those who hate Him. But the Law is impartial, they cannot hate the law.
*There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. *And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left.
...
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”*But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? *And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” *Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”*And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” - Luke 23:32-33,39-43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:32-33,39-43&version=NKJV
When we use the law to bring others to Christ, we have a much higher success rate than if we only teach love.
So, Marhig, given the three answers, that a government has the right to defend the innocent, that we are to love our neighbors, and that the best way to bring others to Christ is through the Law, perhaps it is not so wrong after all to love our fellow man when they are being oppressed, that if we have the ability and are willing, to help bring those who are doing the oppression to justice through the Law.
What do you think? Am I wrong?
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marhig
Well-known member
And where did the laws come from? ...God.
And Gods Holy Spirit was in Moses and Moses received the laws by the word of God, he received the laws by the Spirit to give to the people because the people were lawless, and those of the world are under the law, and the laws show us our sin, the thieves on the cross were under the law, and were judged by the law, but the thief when he met Jesus, repented. It wasn't the thief being put to death on the cross by the law that saved him, it was the word of God in Christ.
When Jesus first started preaching, he said, repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, Christ Jesus preached the ministry of reconciliation, Jesus preached repentance and love and he convicted us of sin by the word, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God unto repentance, faith and obedience to do the will of God, and once we are born of God he cleanses our heart of sin by the Spirit within.
Paul says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. And God knows what to give his people to speak when needed.
Jesus Christ said that he speaks only what his father gives him to speak, Jesus was tough on those who knew the scriptures and the law yet rejected him when he bore witness the truth, but he came with love to those who accepted him, and many sinners who were in darkness, who had never heard the word or known the truth, when they heard the gospel we're brought to repentance.
The word of God is more powerful and sharper than a two edged sword, and it brings the law, judgement and the love, it puts to death and brings the life and it turns every way to keep the way of the tree of Life and God is no respecter of persons.
Also remember this, the greatest commandments are these, to love the Lord your God with all your heart soul, mind and strength, and the love our neighbour as ourselves.
And on those two commandments (which are love commandments) hang all the law and the prophets!
As for helping our fellow man who is oppressed, if we all loved our neighbour as ourselves then we would care for those around us, and there would be no oppression. I've heard some on here saying that it's not up to them to help others, but if we have the love of God in our heart and we see the need and are able to do so, then we would help when we see the need. And if everyone was like this, following Jesus, then the world would be a different place.
As for countries defending one another in war, well that is all of the world and I believe that I knowing God, am not to be involved in taking up weapons or fight. The world is waxing worse and worse as they war and kill and the hatred for one another grows, this is not of God. And I believe that those born of God should not get involved, we are here to share the gospel, and through Christ bring life not death to those we meet. The only death that God wants to see, is death to the lusts of our flesh by the power of the Spirit, death to sin within our hearts and the life of his son flourishing in and through us, setting is free from the chains of sin and the world.
Yes, it is tragedy that Christian community is misrepresenting Jesus to the world, engaging in wars like the rest of the world.
They are no different from the world by lowering Jesus' standards to the world.
Christianity is meaningless if we behave like the world.
NUTS!
There is no such thing of American civil war, it was the war between the states, or War of Northern Aggression.
yankeedoodle boy
What do you mean? Silly Willy.
KingdomRose
New member
That does not apply to God's people today. David was embroiled in war mainly because the Israelites refused to do things Jehovah's way and thus found themselves in perpetual war. All that CEASED, and the avoidance of war was taught by Jesus and his followers. Have you read the New Testament lately?
KingdomRose
New member
I have to say......if one of JWs posts what you do, everyone would say, "Oh! He CAN'T answer my questions!" and they would forever be telling everyone far and wide that a JW was stumped!!
So I hope you don't ever say that to anyone about JWs.
KingdomRose
New member
Sorry....that comma got me thinking in the wrong direction. I thought you were trying to exclude the N.T. Silly me (for real). Well, Jesus said to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and if Caesar's law doesn't conflict with God's laws, then we honor Caesar's law. Apparently the death penalty doesn't conflict with God's law, because Paul seems to have included it in his instructions to obey the superior authorities. God ALLOWS the governing authorities, and without their laws there would be chaos. That is why he allows them. They also provide services that their citizens need. The death penalty apparently fulfills a necessary need, so Christians should recognize its value. Paul wrote:
"Rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for EVIL. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." (Romans 13:3,4, NASB)
So we have two different situations here. Warfare vs. recompense for taking of an innocent life. God does not support warfare. However, his standard for capital punishment has continued over from the Old Testament. There is much from the Law of Moses that can apply to us today, for we see God's attitude toward many things by looking at that Law. What was solidly nailed to the "cross" was the whole system of sacrifices, because Jesus' own sacrifice was sufficient to blot out the use of animals for sacrifices for sins. The whole Law is said to have been made obsolete because it had hung over Israel's heads as a curse, pointing out their NEED for a Savior. Many things from the Law have been continued over into the N.T., such as the avoidance of blood, adultery, be(a)stiality, and many other things. Some things absolutely changed, too, like the prohibition on certain foods and the allowance of divorce for trivial reasons.
After all is said and done, no one can find in the New Testament any support for any nation's military, for it is all summed up in Revelation chapter 19:
"Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, 'Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of mighty men'....And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth AND THEIR ARMIES assembled to make war against him [the King of kings]....and all the birds were filled with their flesh." (verses 17-19,21)
I wouldn't want to be in that crowd when Jesus comes back. Obviously Jesus thinks that any nation's military forces exist in opposition to him!
marhig
Well-known member
Hi again,
I don't believe it's right to take another life for any reason whatsoever. But the world will live by the works if it. And capital punishment and war is of this world, and those born of God are not, as you said we render into Caesar what belongs to Caesar but we render into God that which belongs to God. People are executed daily in the world, and there are wars and rumours of war, but our weapons of warfare are not carnal, we fight with the armour of God.
And, what I believe is, that I knowing God, should not put my hand to violence in any way, whether it be war, or capital punishment. I'm to bring the life, word, and love of God to others through Christ and live it out and do Gods will. With the hope that many through Christ will believe.
marhig
Well-known member
Our weapons of warfare are not of this world. Our weapon is the sword of the Spirit.
Paul taught about putting on the armour of God. All the armour is for protection except for the sword, which is the word of God and this is what Gods people use to fight with and he'll protect us, Satan can can touch our flesh, but he can't touch our life!
Ephesians 6
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high.places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
It is interesting that the USA, as a Christian nation, has acted much like Israel of the OT did and bears its punishment for transgression in the same way.
The verses you give, more correctly would apply to the prophets, than to the general populous of the nation.
Yet the prophets were for the preservation of the nation, if they listen to them.
We have the same situation surrounding us today, so that if we are the prophets of God then we can not expect the general populous to attain to being prophets even though they might believe, nor that they can all live like prophets ought.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
LA
One thing I want to ask you, do you think God commands men, either his people or others, to do things that would otherwise be wrong?
In other words, is God arbitrary when it comes to what is right?
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Of course, it is simple, just follow Jesus teachings or law.
He was sent to teach us how to practice what to practice or not.
So pay attention to what He says.