pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

Aimiel

Well-known member
Romans 13:1-2 KJV
(1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
(2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Are not tyrannical governments considered "powers that be?" For example, the Roman government was certainly tyrannical and not Godly at all. They burnt Christians as candles and fed them to lions. Yet Paul speaks of the powers that be are ordained of God to the Romans of the Roman empire of which he himself is a Roman citizen.

Why does he not say that the Christians are ordained of Christ to overthrow the government tyranny that threatens people's lives and liberties?
Had no one ever fought against tyrannical governments we'd not be able to discuss such things, at least with the freedom or indeed the knowledge that we have, since freedom of the press and even Bibles would not exist. We have the freedoms and rights that we do have because of the powers that God has ordained. Why do you think the USA is the most powerful country on earth? There are countries with larger populations, armies and land; but we are on top because God ordained it so. His design for this country isn't just to take over the world (obviously) but rather to bring peace on this earth and to give The Gospel to everyone.
So that bit that Jesus said on the sermon on the mount, "the meek shall inherit the earth..." he really meant "the warriors shall inherit the earth?" I somehow missed the part where he told us to take up literal swords to kill people on the earth. I thought I saw him say the opposite. Can you point that out to me?
Sure:

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Do you think that God needs his little flock to pick up arms to direct the powers and governments of the world (such as Caesar, Hitler, Stalin, Mao) as he wills?
God doesn't 'need' anything or anyone; but He ordained His Will should be done on earth as it is in Heaven. His Will is not to destroy but rather to bless. The USA is in the blessing business, IMHO.
Is God is powerless to direct legions of angels at his command or to even command them to be consumed of worms if that was what he wanted?
So, you're asking why doesn't God just intervene and do His Will right now (or always)? I believe that He's allowed what He has allowed and prevented what He has prevented for His Purpose (which is Eternal) and I also believe that one of the guidelines of His Purpose is to lead the largest number possible into life eternal.
If Hitler became world king for a generation, does that stop the gospel of God and prevent his return as King of Kings in his time?
I'm sure it would, since his cronies were burning books by the truckload and gassing innocent civilians by the millions. Are you a Nazi?
 

meshak

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Had no one ever fought against tyrannical governments we'd not be able to discuss such things, at least with the freedom or indeed the knowledge that we have, since freedom of the press and even Bibles would not exist. We have the freedoms and rights that we do have because of the powers that God has ordained. Why do you think the USA is the most powerful country on earth? There are countries with larger populations, armies and land; but we are on top because God ordained it so. His design for this country isn't just to take over the world (obviously) but rather to bring peace on this earth and to give The Gospel to everyone.Sure:

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.God doesn't 'need' anything or anyone; but He ordained His Will should be done on earth as it is in Heaven. His Will is not to destroy but rather to bless. The USA is in the blessing business, IMHO.So, you're asking why doesn't God just intervene and do His Will right now (or always)? I believe that He's allowed what He has allowed and prevented what He has prevented for His Purpose (which is Eternal) and I also believe that one of the guidelines of His Purpose is to lead the largest number possible into life eternal.I'm sure it would, since his cronies were burning books by the truckload and gassing innocent civilians by the millions. Are you a Nazi?

excuses excuses.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Some might say they're explanations as to why God doesn't intervene and prevent every evil that takes place. Some might argue that God doesn't exist or He would intervene. Still others might simply mock the explanations with no substance whatsoever.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Had no one ever fought against tyrannical governments we'd not be able to discuss such things, at least with the freedom or indeed the knowledge that we have, since freedom of the press and even Bibles would not exist. We have the freedoms and rights that we do have because of the powers that God has ordained.

History would disagree with your assessment. Christianity spread across the known world not because the Christians fought against tyrannical governments, but because the tyrannical governments persecuted the Christians. And the reason we have the bible today is not because of people fighting against tyrannical governments with swords, but because they laid down their lives and were martyred by the tyrannical governments and a tyrannical church.

Do you really want to know why we have those existing Bibles today? It wasn't through force of arms, it was because God granted a prayer. "God, open the eyes of the king of England." That martyr was strangled and burned... but his prayer was answered.

And I missed the part where you answered what happened when the Christians decided to take down the tyranny of the Roman government. Surely it was "tyrannical" and hostile to Christianity? Christians burning as living candles. Fed to lions. Etc etc etc. Yet those who were closet to Christ and even those who received specific revelation from him were NOT saying as you were saying, that we were to take up literal swords against those in power. Are you able to address this question?

Why do you think the USA is the most powerful country on earth? There are countries with larger populations, armies and land; but we are on top because God ordained it so. His design for this country isn't just to take over the world (obviously) but rather to bring peace on this earth and to give The Gospel to everyone.Sure:

Don't put too much faith in the USA being the most powerful country on earth. Rome and Egypt and Babylon were also the most powerful countries on earth for a time as well, and it wasn't any indication of holiness or righteousness with God. Those were wicked civilizations ... and don't kid yourself into thinking the USA is presently holy. Satanism is a protected religion of the state, God is officially denied, infants are sacrificed in the name of "freedom", so on and so forth. Not a holy nation. Yes, I think it still has a role to play, but it's not a good role.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Jesus say "the kingdom of heaven" is taken by force? That is, the kingdom of heaven? Not the kingdoms of men, or the kingdoms of this world, but the kingdom of heaven. And did this same Jesus not also tell the rulers of that world that his kingdom was "not of this world" else would his servants fight?

John 18:36 KJV
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


God doesn't 'need' anything or anyone; but He ordained His Will should be done on earth as it is in Heaven. His Will is not to destroy but rather to bless. The USA is in the blessing business, IMHO.So, you're asking why doesn't God just intervene and do His Will right now (or always)? I believe that He's allowed what He has allowed and prevented what He has prevented for His Purpose (which is Eternal) and I also believe that one of the guidelines of His Purpose is to lead the largest number possible into life eternal.

Even if we were to assume that this land that spits in the face of God and brings down fire from heaven upon its enemies were righteous and holy in its majority, it still doesn't address the question of whether God has told us to kill in the name of the the kingdoms of this world.

Revelation 13:10 KJV
(10) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


I'm sure it would, since his cronies were burning books by the truckload and gassing innocent civilians by the millions. Are you a Nazi?

If Nazis were willing to follow Christ and understood "love thy neighbor" to include not killing their fellow man, then they would likely fast become Christians. Your nationalism and willingness to kill to defend your "rights and freedoms" in the name of your Country is a lot closer to Nazi fascism than Christian pacifism.
 

meshak

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Some might say they're explanations as to why God doesn't intervene and prevent every evil that takes place. Some might argue that God doesn't exist or He would intervene. Still others might simply mock the explanations with no substance whatsoever.

You are just repeating the things already refuted over and over.

You are just desperate.

If you love Jesus you will understand Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy" because it is self explanatory.

All you are doing is trying to find the loopholes which is excuses.

You cannot love both the world and the God which is what you are trying to do.

You are only deceiving yourselves.
 

JudgeRightly

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If you have any sense at all WHILE reading God's Holy Word: you realize Truths from Him that give guidelines for life, like protecting one's family, friends and neighbors

The Bible says man's rights are as follows:

Right to Life and Liberty; to Worship, to Free Speech, to Purchase and Use Property; to Purchase, Own, and Carry Individual Defensive Weapons (which includes Firearms); to Protect the Innocent; to Corporally Punish his Children; to Due Process of Law; and to Fail.

including (though not limited to) taking up arms against enemies of life,

Question:
If an abortionists is about to kill a baby in a mother's womb in an abortion clinic, do you have the right to charge in and shoot anyone in your way, your plan being to shoot the doctor?


:thumb:

and even the pursuit of happiness.

Solomon pursued happiness, and it ended in his demise.

To the extent one pursues happiness, is the extent to which he will be miserable.

Should our Democratic representatives

God hates democracy.

Don't believe me? Go read Numbers 16.

continue the current trend of attacking America's freedoms you just may see an armed uprising of unprecedented proportions.

And the government would have every right to put that "uprising" down.

If you're not smart enough to take up arms against tyranny then you just don't deserve the freedoms paid for in blood.

Question:

What did David do when he had the opportunity to kill King Saul in that cave?

Yes, I am more than ready to take up my arms to fight tyranny in any form.

So you would take up arms against the tyrannical government that we here in the US have?

The one who is in power is ordained by God.

And you would take up arms against the tyrannical government that, even ordained by God, has become tyrannical?

Those who take power and abuse it deserve to be put down by whatever means necessary.

They deserve to be put down?

Do you mean execute them?

Because you're sounding like a tyrant...

Diplomacy is best but violence isn't to be taken off the table just because you're Casper Milketoast. I'm not being cocky or saying what I think will make any certain impression on anyone other than what I believe. I believe that any ruler ought to obey God

Obviously...

and where they don't we need to curb their lack of guidance

Of course. But that doesn't mean that we "put down" a tyrannical government...

:AMR:

to preserve our freedom and even our very lives.

What do we the people have the right to do in order to accomplish that?

Every soul on this earth is deceived, to a certain extent, whether they ever realize it or not;

And?

but we don't need to sit by and watch our elected fools erode our rights

That's what happens in a democracy/republic.

Fools become the majority and erode the rights of the minority.

like what happened in Venezuela.

http://kgov.com/venezuela

We need to stand for what's right and good,

Of course.

not allow fools to make us into their slaves.

Whatever that means...

If you have a heart and spirit you realize these things are true and necessary.

What if I have a heart and spirit, but I recognize that God did not give us the right to overthrow the government?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
History would disagree with your assessment.
'History' has a way of being written to satisfy those in power.
Christianity spread across the known world not because the Christians fought against tyrannical governments, but because the tyrannical governments persecuted the Christians.
So, you think that China is doing God a favor by imprisoning, torturing and murdering believers? That's twisted.
And the reason we have the bible today is not because of people fighting against tyrannical governments with swords, but because they laid down their lives and were martyred by the tyrannical governments and a tyrannical church.
Yes, but had more Christians had a backbone like Martin Luther did: Christianity might have accomplished our goal a long time ago.
Do you really want to know why we have those existing Bibles today?
I already do, but I guess you just like being dramatic.
It wasn't through force of arms, it was because God granted a prayer. "God, open the eyes of the king of England." That martyr was strangled and burned... but his prayer was answered.
So, all the others who were martyred, who prayed the same, had nothing to do with it?
And I missed the part where you answered what happened when the Christians decided to take down the tyranny of the Roman government. Surely it was "tyrannical" and hostile to Christianity? Christians burning as living candles. Fed to lions. Etc etc etc. Yet those who were close(st) to Christ and even those who received specific revelation from him were NOT saying as you were saying, that we were to take up literal swords against those in power.
If we did as you suggest we'd either be all speaking German or Farsi, neither of which sound appealing to me; and I'm not interested in the 'superman' that might have been developed by the likes of Mengele by now... by the way, are you from Germany?
Don't put too much faith in the USA being the most powerful country on earth.
I don't; my faith is in God, the USA being the most powerful nation on earth is His doing and will not be un-done.
Rome and Egypt and Babylon were also the most powerful countries on earth for a time as well, and it wasn't any indication of holiness or righteousness with God.
Never said it was, but your understanding is darkened, so you wouldn't understand the implications of you bringing them up.
Those were wicked civilizations ... and don't kid yourself into thinking the USA is presently holy.
ibid
Satanism is a protected religion of the state, God is officially denied, infants are sacrificed in the name of "freedom", so on and so forth. Not a holy nation. Yes, I think it still has a role to play, but it's not a good role.
The acts of citizens don't make a state less holy or malign it's reputation for allowing God to move within it's borders. Again: your understanding needs a LOT of work.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Jesus say "the kingdom of heaven" is taken by force? That is, the kingdom of heaven Not the kingdoms of men, or the kingdoms of this world, but the kingdom of heaven.
Apparently your Bible doesn't contain the verse that says: "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." I believe that we're able to bring His Kingdom into this earth, right here right now. It takes faith and understanding to believe that to say that and ESPECIALLY to bring it to pass.
And did this same Jesus not also tell the rulers of that world that his kingdom was "not of this world" else would his servants fight?
He is indeed the King of this world, but His Kingdom is designed to bring as many into eternity as possible, so He had to bring victory over the enemy first. It's our job, nay: duty to bring His Kingdom into this world.
Even if we were to assume that this land that spits in the face of God and brings down fire from heaven upon its enemies were righteous and holy in its majority, it still doesn't address the question of whether God has told us to kill in the name of the the kingdoms of this world.
No, you're right, it takes righteous judgement and a conscience to decide these things.
If Nazis were willing to follow Christ and understood "love thy neighbor" to include not killing their fellow man, then they would likely fast become Christians. Your nationalism and willingness to kill to defend your "rights and freedoms" in the name of your Country is a lot closer to Nazi fascism than Christian pacifism.
Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. How great is the darkness that lives inside of you. Duhh. :aimiel:
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
You are just repeating the things already refuted over and over.
Just because you've fallen for a belief doesn't make it Truth.
If you love Jesus you will understand Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy" because it is self explanatory.
Who said that I didn't love my enemies? Only someone who makes rash presumptions and jumps to false conclusions.
All you are doing is trying to find the loopholes which is excuses.
You're just repeating things that I already refuted or you skim and don't really read what I write in reply.
You cannot love both the world and the God which is what you are trying to do.
I am merely being a good citizen of this country that I am living in while my main citizenship is Heavenly. You, however are deceived, whether by your own doing or by a resident familiar spirit I'm yet un-aware.
You are only deceiving yourselves.
Thank you. Coming from you: I consider this high praise.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
If an abortionists is about to kill a baby in a mother's womb in an abortion clinic, do you have the right to charge in and shoot anyone in your way, your plan being to shoot the doctor?
Were I to be given instructions from God to do so? Yes. Otherwise, it's a travesty and a shame upon our great nation that we murder so many innocent babies every single day. It's about to change, though.
God hates democracy.
That's your opinion.
So you would take up arms against the tyrannical government that we here in the US have?
If the democrats attempt to take away my second amendment right to keep and bear arms, you're damn right I will; and I'll be in very good company along with most every guy I work with and most of my family and friends. Would you just sit idly by and let your government do something that removes your rights and makes you a slave?
Of course. But that doesn't mean that we "put down" a tyrannical government.
Obviously: your understanding is darkened.
What do we the people have the right to do in order to accomplish that?
Um, in truth: the right to revolt against tyranny. If you don't believe in something you'll swallow any hogwash that is thrown at you. You apparently don't believe in freedom or the right to be committed to a cause enough to lay down your life to protect the rights and freedoms that are greater than your own life.
That's what happens in a democracy/republic. Fools become the majority and erode the rights of the minority.
It wasn't the fools who set up this government and it isn't fools who are in the majority; it is merely the fools who are trying to deceive us into following them down the rabbit hole to hell and the majority of good people in this country know that and are not about to follow them any more.
What if I have a heart and spirit, but I recognize that God did not give us the right to overthrow the government?
Then I'd have to conclude that you're either ignorant or your understanding is otherwise darkened.
 

Rosenritter

New member
'History' has a way of being written to satisfy those in power.

So you are suggesting that Christians DID take up arms and overthrown tyrannical governments for God, but "those in power" changed the history books so that we have no way of knowing about it? How exactly did they do this and stay "in power" if they were overthrown? Your own story is self-contradictory.

So, you think that China is doing God a favor by imprisoning, torturing and murdering believers? That's twisted.

You should try listening to the reports of some real missionaries. No, not the types with rifles and grenades, I mean the ones that come back and say that note that the church flourishes where it is persecuted, but grows lax and lukewarm in abundance. These missionaries say "we need more persecution."

Yes, but had more Christians had a backbone like Martin Luther did: Christianity might have accomplished our goal a long time ago.

I'm not sure what history book you are reading, but Martin Luther opposed violence and overthrow against the government. You're getting good at contradicting yourself though, please continue...

I already do, but I guess you just like being dramatic.So, all the others who were martyred, who prayed the same, had nothing to do with it?

I think it likely that God heard the prayers of other martyrs as well. Is it not written, "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints?"

Psalms 116:15 KJV
(15) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

If we did as you suggest we'd either be all speaking German or Farsi, neither of which sound appealing to me; and I'm not interested in the 'superman' that might have been developed by the likes of Mengele by now... by the way, are you from Germany?

It's obvious that you don't put any faith in God to be able to direct world events according to his will and prophecy without your help.

I don't; my faith is in God,

... but without your help He cannot save the world from tyrants. He must be all out of legions of angels.

... the USA being the most powerful nation on earth is His doing and will not be un-done.

Wow. "The USA is the most powerful nation on earth and always will be? It has been done and will not be undone?" Your god wears red, white, and blue? So one question here, we know that the USA is strong and does have nuclear superiority. It's the only nation on this planet that has brought down atomic death from the sky so far: is that also the will of God? Done and not to be undone? Humor this question, please.

Never said it was, but your understanding is darkened, so you wouldn't understand the implications of you bringing them up.ibidThe acts of citizens don't make a state less holy or malign it's reputation for allowing God to move within it's borders. Again: your understanding needs a LOT of work.

Still reeling from that shameless bigotry in your "are you from Germany" comment and the following statement of state-worship .

Apparently your Bible doesn't contain the verse that says: "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

I fail to see how the Kingdom of Heaven being at hand has anything to do with taking it upon ourselves to overthrow governments of this world that are not ruled by the Republican Party.

I believe that we're able to bring His Kingdom into this earth, right here right now. It takes faith and understanding to believe that to say that and ESPECIALLY to bring it to pass.

My Bible says that Jesus himself brings His Kingdom to this earth when he appears in the skies with his angels and the sound of a trumpet.

He is indeed the King of this world, but His Kingdom is designed to bring as many into eternity as possible, so He had to bring victory over the enemy first. It's our job, nay: duty to bring His Kingdom into this world.No, you're right, it takes righteous judgement and a conscience to decide these things. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. How great is the darkness that lives inside of you. Duhh. :aimiel:

So let's assume for a moment that you have the command of a million man army, you have your finger on the triggers for the USA nuclear weapon silos... please tell us how you would use this power to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to the world without needing Jesus to return just yet. And tell me what your Kingdom of Heaven looks like once you've got there.
 

Rosenritter

New member
'History' has a way of being written to satisfy those in power.So, you think that China is doing God a favor by imprisoning, torturing and murdering believers? That's twisted.Yes, but had more Christians had a backbone like Martin Luther did: Christianity might have accomplished our goal a long time ago.I already do, but I guess you just like being dramatic.So, all the others who were martyred, who prayed the same, had nothing to do with it? If we did as you suggest we'd either be all speaking German or Farsi, neither of which sound appealing to me; and I'm not interested in the 'superman' that might have been developed by the likes of Mengele by now... by the way, are you from Germany?I don't; my faith is in God, the USA being the most powerful nation on earth is His doing and will not be un-done.Never said it was, but your understanding is darkened, so you wouldn't understand the implications of you bringing them up.ibidThe acts of citizens don't make a state less holy or malign it's reputation for allowing God to move within it's borders. Again: your understanding needs a LOT of work.Apparently your Bible doesn't contain the verse that says: "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." I believe that we're able to bring His Kingdom into this earth, right here right now. It takes faith and understanding to believe that to say that and ESPECIALLY to bring it to pass.He is indeed the King of this world, but His Kingdom is designed to bring as many into eternity as possible, so He had to bring victory over the enemy first. It's our job, nay: duty to bring His Kingdom into this world.No, you're right, it takes righteous judgement and a conscience to decide these things. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. How great is the darkness that lives inside of you. Duhh. :aimiel:

Are you ever going to answer that question about why Paul didn't lead the Christians to overthrown the tyrannical Roman Empire?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
So, you have no argument against what I just posted? Good. :thumb:

No, I will just chalk that up to history; how NOT to treat a tyrannical form of government. Thanks for playing, it's still your turn.
 

Rosenritter

New member
So, you have no argument against what I just posted? Good. :thumb:

No, I will just chalk that up to history; how NOT to treat a tyrannical form of government. Thanks for playing, it's still your turn.

Whom are you speaking to? You might want to respond to the previously posted argument. Post 2310, if you're having trouble finding it. Here's a link: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...us-followers&p=5304643&viewfull=1#post5304643


I have one change in the standing request but because I sense insanity in the air I'd prefer not to touch the date-stamp. So I'll change the request here.

You no longer have the million man army or the nukes in that scenario. Instead I'll give you, Christian Avenger of the Kingdom, a special book. You have said that it is your right to judge who lives and dies and what counts as tyranny, so in this book if you write someone's name they will instantly die. It's more efficient than a gun. In this hypothetical scenario, do you use this book to carry through what you said you would do with force of arms?

And back to the point that you have dodged three times now. Paul lived under a tyrannical regime that murdered Christians. He didn't advocate overthrowing the Roman government. Explain? Or are you saying that the REAL Christians (not Paul) did overthrow the government and we all missed it because the winners rewrote history?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
So one question here, we know that the USA is strong and does have nuclear superiority. It's the only nation on this planet that has brought down atomic death from the sky so far: is that also the will of God?
If necessary, yes. Obviously, He allowed it, so it was His Will that it might take place. I'm sure He would have preferred otherwise, but the Japanese didn't have sense enough to know when to quit, not unlike yourself.
I fail to see how the Kingdom of Heaven being at hand has anything to do with taking it upon ourselves to overthrow governments of this world that are not ruled by the Republican Party.
Parties are irrelevant, but their motives and ethics are what we judge them by. If we follow your advice we'd fall for any tyrannical fool that comes down the pike just like what Venezuela's military did.
My Bible says that Jesus himself brings His Kingdom to this earth when he appears in the skies with his angels and the sound of a trumpet.
So you don't believe that The Kingdom of God is inside you? I agree.
So let's assume for a moment that you have the command of a million man army, you have your finger on the triggers for the USA nuclear weapon silos... please tell us how you would use this power to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to the world without needing Jesus to return just yet. And tell me what your Kingdom of Heaven looks like once you've got there.
Our Presidents (since Eisenhower) have had the 'Football' in their grasp... but just because they carry a big stick doesn't mean that they need to go around using it; it's a deterrent, obviously, just as M.A.D. is a deterrent. I would do exactly what Trump is doing: lean upon tyrants all over the globe to play nice.

Heaven is pretty awesome. I only wish you could see It.
 

JudgeRightly

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Were I to be given instructions from God to do so? Yes.

God wouldn't, because that's called murder, and God says "You shall not murder."

That you're willing to commit murder is very telling.

Otherwise, it's a travesty and a shame upon our great nation that we murder so many innocent babies every single day.

So what, specifically, should be done about it, in your opinion?

It's about to change, though.

How so and in what way?

God hates democracy.

Don't believe me? Go read Numbers 16.

That's your opinion.

Perhaps if you didn't cherry pick my argument, we would make progress in this topic. That's something I expect from Meshak, not someone like you.

In any case, no, that's not just my opinion, it's what the Bible shows.

Here is what Numbers 16 says, in relation to how God feels about democracy:

Spoiler
Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men;and they rose up before Moses with some of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, representatives of the congregation, men of renown.They gathered together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “ You take too much upon yourselves, for all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”So when Moses heard it, he fell on his face;and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His and who is holy, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him.Do this: Take censers, Korah and all your company;put fire in them and put incense in them before the Lord tomorrow, and it shall be that the man whom the Lord chooses is the holy one. You take too much upon yourselves, you sons of Levi!”Then Moses said to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi:Is it a small thing to you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the work of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to serve them;and that He has brought you near to Himself, you and all your brethren, the sons of Levi, with you? And are you seeking the priesthood also?Therefore you and all your company are gathered together against the Lord. And what is Aaron that you complain against him?”And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, but they said, “We will not come up!Is it a small thing that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, that you should keep acting like a prince over us?Moreover you have not brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey, nor given us inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you put out the eyes of these men? We will not come up!”Then Moses was very angry, and said to the Lord, “Do not respect their offering. I have not taken one donkey from them, nor have I hurt one of them.”And Moses said to Korah, “Tomorrow, you and all your company be present before the Lord —you and they, as well as Aaron.Let each take his censer and put incense in it, and each of you bring his censer before the Lord, two hundred and fifty censers; both you and Aaron, each with his censer.”So every man took his censer, put fire in it, laid incense on it, and stood at the door of the tabernacle of meeting with Moses and Aaron.And Korah gathered all the congregation against them at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the congregation.And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,“Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.”Then they fell on their faces, and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and You be angry with all the congregation?”So the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,“Speak to the congregation, saying, ‘Get away from the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.’ ”Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him.And he spoke to the congregation, saying, “Depart now from the tents of these wicked men! Touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins.”So they got away from around the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, with their wives, their sons, and their little children.And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will.If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me.But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them,and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods.So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also! ”And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:“Tell Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, to pick up the censers out of the blaze, for they are holy, and scatter the fire some distance away.The censers of these men who sinned against their own souls, let them be made into hammered plates as a covering for the altar. Because they presented them before the Lord, therefore they are holy; and they shall be a sign to the children of Israel.”So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers, which those who were burned up had presented, and they were hammered out as a covering on the altar,to be a memorial to the children of Israel that no outsider, who is not a descendant of Aaron, should come near to offer incense before the Lord, that he might not become like Korah and his companions, just as the Lord had said to him through Moses. - Numbers 16:1-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers16:1-40&version=NKJV


Here why a monarchy, not democracy (or a republic, for that matter) is the answer when the question is, "what is the best form of government."

Spoiler
• The majority is evil (Matthew 7)
• “... wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and… many… go in by it.” (Matthew 7:13)
• “Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14)
• Since the majority is evil, majority rule is guaranteed, over time, to be evil.
• So majority rule, on average, hastens government’s descent into wickedness.
• Since the majority is evil, once a democratic government becomes evil, virtually nothing can restore it.
• While individuals often repent and turn toward God, the masses rarely do, especially not of their own leading.
• As in the modern vernacular, the Bible calls governing officials “authorities.” (Romans 13, Titus 3, Luke 12, Acts 16)
• Government authority does not imply majority rule, but rule over the majority. (Romans 13)
• Democracy promotes arrogance, suggesting to people that the governing leaders should obey them.
~ Democracy: people obey the government, which obeys the people, who obey the government, which obeys the people, etc.​
• Circular authority suffers from the same weakness as circular reasoning: both lack a valid foundation.
• Democracy promotes arrogance suggesting to people that they should be able to lord it over their neighbors.​
• “Better to live under one tyrant 3,000 miles away, than 3,000 tyrants one mile away.” - The Patriot movie
• True authority, like water, flows downhill not up, not from the people to rulers but from rulers down. (Numbers 27)
• Authority flows from God, through government, to men, and passes through parents to reach children.
• “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities…”
• For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
• “Governing authorities” are from God and each official should act as “God’s minister” (Romans 13) [i.e., God has appointed all authority structures, of parents, ministers, and government officials.]
~ “Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and… will bring judgment on themselves.”
~ “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good...)”​
• God never established governance by committee, but governance by individuals.
• The desire to rule over others (Matthew 20, Mark 10) lurks among the vulgar lusts (Matthew 20, Mark 9:10).
• Democracy exalts the vice of brazen self-promotion to the center of public life.
• In denial of Scripture, leftists believe men are basically good and so support rule by the people.
~ Leftists inflate individual authority to release men from the restraint of government, church, and family.​
• Man’s inherent sinfulness indicates that democracy will systematically worsen government.
• Unlike majorities, even wicked individuals, i.e. Pilate, may decide justly, for their own reputation’s sake.
• Voting negatives: (Numbers 27) & representative of the people, Numbers 16, rebellion of Korah…
• Elections “by smooth words and [with] flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Romans 16)
• Alcuin's Letter to Charlemagne 800 AD foolishly states “the voice of the people is the voice of God.”
~ President Millard Fillmore rightly said, “May God save the country, for it is obvious the people will not.”​
• The forces of Hell love democracy, including Hillary, Homosexuals, Humanists, and Hollywood.
• In a monarchy the king is likely to be corrupt, but he does not legalize his behavior.
• In a democracy everyone is made king, and laws are changed to permit wicked behavior.
~ Since the majority is evil (Matthew 7), democracy, that is, majority rule, is inherently an evil government system.​

Aimiel, do you consider yourself to be excluded from "every soul" in Romans 13?

If the democrats attempt to take away my second amendment right

Oh, you think it's a government given right to keep and bear arms?

So then, why is it bad if the government takes away a right that it had the authority to give?

Or perhaps it's not a right that the government has the authority to grant, but one that God has granted to all mankind, and that the government does not have the authority to take away.

Why concede the debate in advance by saying it's a "government-given" right, instead of a "God-given" right?

to keep and bear arms, you're damn right I will;

So you would revolt against the government that God has granted the authority to rule?

Tell me again how that isn't going against God...

and I'll be in very good company along with most every guy I work with and most of my family and friends.

So?

Would you just sit idly by and let your government do something that removes your rights and makes you a slave?

You're presenting a false dichotomy, where your argument is that it's either revolt against a tyrannical government or roll over and do nothing to stop them.

I'm telling you that there's more possibilities than that.

It's called civil disobedience, and it alone, not revolt, and not rolling over, is supported by the Bible.

God expects leaders to obey His law.

When they don't, He expects the people to protest the actions of a wicked leader, up to and including civil disobedience.

But He does not expect the people to revolt, because that goes against Him establishing the authority that a government has been given.

Obviously: your understanding is darkened.

Is it a possibility in your mind that your position is flawed?

Be honest.

Um, in truth: the right to revolt against tyranny.

Please point out in the Bible where the people are granted the power to revolt against their government.

I'll wait.

If you don't believe in something you'll swallow any hogwash that is thrown at you. You apparently don't believe in freedom or the right to be committed to a cause enough to lay down your life to protect the rights and freedoms that are greater than your own life.

Once again, you're making a false dichotomy, and in addition to that, you're now attempting to poison the well.

Please, attack my argument, not me.

It wasn't the fools who set up this government

In a way, they founding fathers were foolish.

They ignored the warning of scripture on democracy. (See above.)

And look how far we've fallen because of it.

and it isn't fools who are in the majority;

Sure it is.

The majority hate or reject God.

The Bible calls such people fools.

it is merely the fools who are trying to deceive us into following them down the rabbit hole to hell and the majority of good people in this country know that and are not about to follow them any more.

Again, I ask, Do you consider yourself to be excluded from "every soul" in Romans 13:1

Then I'd have to conclude that you're either ignorant or your understanding is otherwise darkened.

Could you consider something else, that perhaps your position is the one that's flawed? Consider that you have not used a single verse from scripture this entire time, yet I have used plenty.

Now, my position could be using those scriptures wrong, so just because I use scripture doesn't automatically make my position correct.

But you have no scripture to fall back on, or at least have not presented any, and have (at least, in your first and only response to me so far) ignored the scripture I recommended you read.

That does not bode well for you, who even (on your profile) calls himself (herself?) a "Right Winger" Christian.

This is my challenge to you, Aimiel. Please use scripture to defend your beliefs. Otherwise this argument is going to get one-sided very quickly, and not in your favor.

---------------------------------

Here are the portions of my previous response that I would like a reply to. Could you please respond to these? I would love a response.


[JudgeRightly;5304884]The Bible says man's [God-given] rights are as follows:

Right to Life and Liberty; to Worship, to Free Speech, to Purchase and Use Property; to Purchase, Own, and Carry Individual Defensive Weapons (which includes Firearms); to Protect the Innocent; to Corporally Punish his Children; to Due Process of Law; and to Fail.



Do you agree/disagree with the above? Explain if disagree.


and even the pursuit of happiness.

Solomon pursued happiness, and it ended in his demise.

To the extent one pursues happiness, is the extent to which he will be miserable.



Agree? Disagree? Why?


continue the current trend of attacking America's freedoms you just may see an armed uprising of unprecedented proportions.

And the government would have every right to put that "uprising" down.




If you're not smart enough to take up arms against tyranny then you just don't deserve the freedoms paid for in blood.

Question:

What did David do when he had the opportunity to kill King Saul in that cave?



Those who take power and abuse it deserve to be put down by whatever means necessary.

They deserve to be put down?

Do you mean execute them?

Because you're sounding like a tyrant...



...who is consolidating his power...

No?


and where they don't we need to curb their lack of guidance

Of course. But that doesn't mean that we "put down" a tyrannical government...

:AMR:



In other words, is there something else we can do, besides revolt, to curb the government?


 

meshak

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It is a surprise that Rosen and JR are not advocating Christians in the military. It is very rare for trin believers, especially JR, she has never participated in this thread before.

blessings.
 

JudgeRightly

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It is a surprise that Rosen and JR are not advocating Christians in the military.

Not the main topic of the thread. I, at least, still think there is nothing wrong with Christians being in the military.

It is very rare for trin believers, especially JR, she has never participated in this thread before.

:liberals:

:idunno:
 

Rosenritter

New member
That is strange.

So where do you find it is biblical for Jesus' followers join in the military?

The closest support I can think of would be this passage, where John the Baptist instructed the soldiers to "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages" ... but this was rather an instruction for how those who were soldiers to behave, rather than an endorsement of entering the military to begin with.

Luke 3:14-15 KJV
(14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
(15) And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

... I will add in also the account of Cornelius who was a centurion when he was called to Christ in Acts 10. However,this also has the same deficiency as it regards only their estate before they were converted, and does not address whether this was an optimal situation or whether they would seek to leave military service when they were able.

Acts 10:1-2 KJV
(1) There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
(2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
 
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