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Wrong conclusion. Can't say that I'm surprised.Well, at least you obviously can't read very carefully.'Can't say that I'm surprised.
the church
- Thread starter chrysostom
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Eagles Wings
New member
The problem I have with this sacrament is that it ties one's salvation to the continual need to atone for temporal sin. So, one is justified, and yet continually having to work it out by works (even though these works seem faithful and kind).Well, at least you obviously can't read very carefully.
I claim God's work in my sanctification, based on Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV).
You don't have to atone for temporal sin, which isn't a thing. What the Church teaches is that sin has both an eternal and a temporal consequence. Christ atoned for the eternal consequence of all sin for the Church, but the temporal consequence or punishment or penalty for sin remains and must be endured, and this is what the Church calls purification, and it must occur, either in this life or in the next (in the next, called Purgatory).
And never let it be forgotten, that Purgatory is not because of the Maker taking out His wrath upon us, but, the Church teaches, it is sin itself that is doing the punishing, but, again, only temporally.
Believe me I used to see it the way you do, but it's a misunderstanding. The Church teaches the complete and total atonement for the eternal consequence of sin through the Lord's sacrifice. In fact, for those misunderstanding Purgatory and the temporal penalties of sin, they are making a mountain out of a molehill; exaggerating the importance of this facet of the faith. All those in Purgatory now (those being purified) are "OSAS," and shall enter the eternal kingdom of God once their purification is completed.
The more I've come to understand Purgatory, the more I've come to see it as beginning now, if we let it, so that we can get a head start on the process. But even so, it doesn't seem that bad. Through enduring purification, which we bring upon ourselves, we learn and grow as His servants.
The Church agrees with you.
Eagles Wings
New member
The dogma of purgatory is heresy. I understand well it's origins and meanings. You make light of the disastrous implications this has had on millions of people.
If the RCC claims that Christ is sufficient, then why does the believer have to be cleansed in the fires of purgatory?
The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything Scripture says about salvation.
It is you who misunderstands the nature of Christ's sacrifice.
Isaiah 53:5
I John 2:1-2,
Hebrews 10:14
If the RCC claims that Christ is sufficient, then why does the believer have to be cleansed in the fires of purgatory?
The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything Scripture says about salvation.
It is you who misunderstands the nature of Christ's sacrifice.
Isaiah 53:5
I John 2:1-2,
Hebrews 10:14
Says you. And notably, says no Church council.
No, I do not. The issue you and others are raising without saying it, is in my judgment the primary reason for the Reformation in the first place; that the Church has first of all been slow to reveal her formal teachings to the bishops so that the Magisterium is, and knows that they are, all on the same page, and next, she has been slow to unfold those teachings so that a generally far more literate Church, can easily understand our faith.
On the first point, the Holy See did issue the Roman Catechism, seemingly in direct response to the Reformation, so that at least all the bishops could know the genuine and authentic faith. And on the second point, I believe that we are in a very long phase of gradually dispersing the doctrine and morals that the Church has always believed and taught.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a complete explanation of the entire historic faith, but its primary audience is the bishops. To assist in the aforementioned distribution of the teachings of the faith to the nonclerical faithful, she also has published the Compendium of the Catechism, which is a slimmer and clearer volume than the Catechism, with references to the Catechism for further explanation.
Because of the distinction I mentioned earlier between eternal and temporal consequences for sin.
Here is where I think that you and others who think like you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's just not a big deal. Everybody is a trespasser, and trespasses by their very nature incur penalties, temporally as well as eternally. Eternal consequences have been eternally atoned for through the sacrifice of Christ, for the Church.
It's really not even my job, being a nonclerical layman, to understand. It is the job primarily of the Magisterium/the Church's bishops, to understand and to teach, not only Christ's sacrifice, but the whole of the historic Christian faith.
Eagles Wings
New member
Agreed, and thus the great divide between Catholics and those of the Protestant Reformation.
Protestants are guilty of violating, ironically enough, the dispensational method of reading and interpreting Scripture. For example, one of the most popular passages that Protestants cite in support of the idea that everybody and their brother must understand the depths of our faith (2Ti2:15), is from an epistle addressed to a bishop (Timothy). Neither I, nor probably most people on this board, are bishops, so this epistle, while certainly Scripture, and therefore, to borrow another dispensational idea, is written for me, it is not written to me.
Eagles Wings
New member
Have no idea what you are talking about. I am not dispensational. The entire Canon of Scripture is for our edification.
Fair enough. The dispensational approach to Scripture is simply being cognizant to whom each scripture was or is written. For instance, the OT was written to ancient Israel, and not to the Church.
Agreed (though we probably disagree on what the canon is
), and this is also in keeping with the dispensational approach. Even if the OT wasn't written to us, it was written for us.
Cruciform
New member
Only according to the entirely non-authoritative opinions fed to you by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect(s). By contrast, see THIS.
Because the one sufficient atonement accomplished by Jesus Christ must also be APPLIED to the individual by the Holy Spirit, as many Reformed Protestant theologians readily acknowledge. This takes place, in part, in the intermediate state known as purgatory (see above).
Cruciform
New member
Amen. For example, throw away such traditions of men as sola scriptura, "believers-only" baptism, sola fide, anti-sacramentalism, Protestant sectarianism, etc., etc., etc...
Cruciform
New member
Don't bother. :yawn:
Cruciform
New member
See the cited source in Post #2212 above.
see post 1212 to completely refute yourself
they killed most of them
Nevermind cruciform. He puts so much emphasis on supposed "word of mouth" and "passed on" traditions. Not realizing that his true nature HATES God's Word. He hates protestants too so watch your back
Cruciform
New member
Your vast ignorance of ecclesiastical history is noted. Thanks for placing it on public display for us. :thumb:
the church will survive serpentdove
