The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

In theory, the Unitarian is about "there is One God" but in practice I've found that it's really more about "Jesus is not God." Assuming you identify yourself as Unitarian, if you had to choose between the two, which is more important to you? Which is your central premise, upon which you base the rest of your belief?

a) There is One God
b) Jesus cannot be God

:thumb:

Some of us find the traditional biblical Unitarian model fitting (among other Christologies that do not subscribe to the dogmatic claims of a traditional-orthodox definition of the 'Trinity'), - if it was good enough for Jesus and his original apostles staying within essential Judaism, then such a pure monotheism is staying within the pure spring of that dispensation. I'm all for 'progressive revelation' but some fundamentals hold, and that is pure monotheism, where only 'God' is 'God'....and 'men' in service to The ONE are but anointed prophets, kings, priests and messiah of the One and Only True DEITY. There is no mystery in a Unitarian Christology which a Trinitarian imposes,...and 'unnecesarily' as a good many Unitarians would maintain.

 

[NWL]

Oh but it does.

The point marhig was trying to make was this.

You made a claim that since Jesus was one with the Father (John 10:30) that this meant that he was the Father and God.

Since John 17:21,21 has Jesus asking the father in prayer for his followers to be one with him just as he is one with the Father, like in John 10:30, then using your own reasoning it can be said that Christ followers are also God. Reasoning MUST be consistent, inconsistent reasoning is bad reasoning. If Jesus being one with the Father makes him the Father and God, then Christ followers being one with Jesus and the Father the same way the Father and the son are one, makes them God too!

Since this cannot be true, the oneness that is spoken about in John 17:20-21 and John 10:30 cannot be talking about oneness in deity or personage. The oneness HAS to represent something else. This is irrefutable.

(John 17:20, 21) “..I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I with you, that they also may be one with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.."

 

[Rosenritter]

@NWL, do you speak for every Jehovah's Witness?

To put this another way, is it possible that there are Jehovah's Witnesses who understand some things differently than you, or who may implement or apply their understanding differently? Some within your congregation may deny that Jesus is God, some may attempt to work for salvation, others may even say that "Jesus is God with a capital G, Jesus is God the Father" (I've seen that last statement in person from a Jehovah's Witness.)

My point being that you should be treated as an individual, not a label, but even if you disclose a denomination it is not always safe to assume that you are entirely within the bound of what we have heard is supposed to "constitute" that label.

No JW tries to work there way to heaven, we all understand that the gift of life is a free gift (Romans 6:23). What you do find however is that throughout the bible it teaches that we must obey God in order to receive his blessings. It makes no sense to be a Christian, namely a follower of christ, and not actually follow him and somehow still be a follower of Christ. TO be a follower of christ we must imitate and listen to the things he taught and instructed. This theme of obedience is found throughout the bible and is an undeniable fact.

(Hebrews 5:9) "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."

(Matthew 28:19, 20) "..Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.."

(Luke 6:46) “..Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?.."

(Matthew 7:21) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

Obedience it required for salvation, fact! Just like a free prize draw has terms and conditions Gods free gift has terms and conditions. A free prize draw is still a free gift regardless of the terms and conditions, likewise Gods free gift is still a free gift despite of the terms and conditions.

 

[NWL]

@NWL, do you speak for every Jehovah's Witness?

To put this another way, is it possible that there are Jehovah's Witnesses who understand some things differently than you, or who may implement or apply their understanding differently? Some within your congregation may deny that Jesus is God, some may attempt to work for salvation, others may even say that "Jesus is God with a capital G, Jesus is God the Father" (I've seen that last statement in person from a Jehovah's Witness.)

My point being that you should be treated as an individual, not a label, but even if you disclose a denomination it is not always safe to assume that you are entirely within the bound of what we have heard is supposed to "constitute" that label.

You make a good point. However, as Christians we are to speak in union with each other, when I say christians here I'm referring to other JW's. The reason why we must speak in union is so not to cause divisions in the faith. If a certain congregation holds that Jesus is the Father, and yet another one believes Jesus is not the Father, then a division is created which might split apart the worldwide congregation and create sects. As followers of chirst we are to stick together and speak in union.

(1 Corinthians 1:10) "..Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.."

So to answer your questions, yes there may be some others in my faith who think differently in regards to some believes, this number though is probably very low. And Yes I do speak for every witness since we all speak in union with each other. I have been a JW for over 26 years and from my experience haven't met anyone in my faith who holds different beliefs in relation to the identity of Jesus, I know a lot of other JW's, they make up the vast majority of freinds, family and acquaintances.

No JW will deny that Jesus is a God/god. Jesus being God/god is displayed and written about throughout JW litrature. A fellow witness may object to the idea that Jesus is God/a god but this is only typically done since generally anybody who says Jesus is God means it in a sense that he is God part of the trinity, hence the reason why they might deny it. I've never known a JW to deny that verses such as Isaiah 9:6 , John 20:28 or Hebrews 1:8 exist.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Salvation by works.

Show faith without works.

We do know your works; how they are of envy and hatred.

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[popsthebuilder]

It's so simple that a child can understand it, but unbelievers will not.

Matt 28:19 (KJV)​

(28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: ​

ONE NAME that belongs to THREE PERSONS.

The Father AND the Son AND the Holy Ghost.

Become a believer and accept what God says about Himself.

That in no way says that the three are coequal or coeternal.

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[popsthebuilder]

GT how can Jesus be the father when he says the father is greater than he? And that he could do nothing without the father.

He even said that he was sent by the father and that he was doing the father's will and not his own will. So how can he be the father?

The Father was in him!

He returned to the FATHER upon resurrection. Lord and GOD are synonymous in regards to spirit though the Lord was a mortal in physical form, and wasn't equal to GOD while in the flesh. His human vessel overran with the Spirit of GOD in that physical manifestation. That same spirit was of GOD ND returned to GOD.

GOD alone is judge, but scripture says Christ is judge donut stands to reason that they are the she in spirit.

Does that make sense?

An attempt at explaining. Please do bring up any discrepancies

peace dear friend

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[Right Divider]

That in no way says that the three are coequal or coeternal.

The three all have the SAME NAME, which refers to their AUTHORITY.

There is only ONE God and He has revealed Himself as the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Ghost.

That you don't like it makes no difference at all.

 

[Truster]

Show faith without works.

We donate your works; how they are of envy and hatred.

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"donate"?

 

[Rosenritter]

Not exactly Pops. You're seeking to find any way that such a statement could be incorrect, rather than trying to find the sense in which she means it. You only need to find a way in which the statement can be correctly applied for it to become a viable option.

By means of analogy, as the father of a daughter, I am 100% male. If I quit my job to become a skating coach to prepare my daughter for the Olympics, I am now 100% coach. I am both 100% male and 100% coach. And I'm still 100% father to my daughter. Those don't add up to 300%, and some of those overlap and some are separate realms.

As 100% male + 100% father + 100% coach is not = 300%, nor necessarily three different beings. They could be in some cases (three different beings) but they can also be the same, and the same person might operate in one or more roles at the same time.

A being is a thing with form or a thing formed.

God is all encompassing, man is not.

GOD is eternal, man is not.

Three persons isn't three different beings or forms, it's three people, and as such the logical conclusion is 200%spirit +100% man. Put them together as if one in three and get a being that is 300%

Ibis illogical, and your attempted explaining away only works to confuse and contradict.



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[Rosenritter]

Clearly spelled out?

Throughout scripture?

Can you point me to the book and chapter where it is spelled out, "This is the Trinity" and "You must believe the Trinity" or "Hear O Israel, the LORD your God is a Trinity?" Since you say it is throughout scripture, can you please give me five such instances?

No, it does not you liar.

The trinity doctrine is clearly spelled out THROUGHOUT scripture.

But unbelievers like you don't want to believe the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

I've told you already. I'm sorry GT but we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I don't agree on disagreeing.
And you have not answered my questions.

 

[Rosenritter]

I have personally seen that the side effects of flawed Trinity doctrine having the result of creating Unitarians who deny Jesus being God at all.

I have also seen someone turn from Unitarian to acknowledging and adopting "Jesus is the LORD God" when they were no longer required to accept a Trinity doctrine for which they could see obvious flaws and/or contradictions.

YOUR MERE DENIAL it means nothing.

I have a powerful testimony.

Even though I was saved in a powerful way, I still had to check on what I was taught.

I tried to defend the trinity doctrine before, but when I searched the written Word of God, it was not something that could be defended.

The Jews who reject Jesus use your trinity doctrine to reject Christ.

I tell you, when I was saved, Jesus spoke to me, and Jesus gave me his Spirit.

Now how does one then say that wasn't Jesus but only a proxy?

No way, for they are one and the same.

There is only one Spirit, and that Spirit is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit given to all who love Him.

 

[Rosenritter]

If Rosenritter referred to himself in the third person, or worse yet, introduced himself as "him whom Rosenritter sent" he might have reasons for doing so, and would still technically be correct, but it could also cause some confusion if one held onto that instead of listening when he switched to straight up identification, would it not?

Jesus says in Revelation, "I am the first and the last, I am the beginning and the end" four times. God says the same thing in Isaiah three times, including "that is my name" and "I will not share it with another" and "there is none beside me."

At least that is what Rosenritter would say, if he were talking to you.

It is the life of Christ that is made manifest in us by the power of the Holy Spirit, this is how the spirit of Christ is within us, and we are then to live by the will of God and obey him and the love of God and life of Christ should be shining through us like a bright and shining light, and Christ through us should be reconciling others to God by the word of reconciliation.

What about this verse, this is when Jesus is with the father in heaven, not when he is a man!

Revelation 2:26

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of MY Father.

Revelation 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with MY Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Rosenritter]

Rosenritter and I will have to consider whether we agree with your statement. We will probably go with whatever Andrew decides.

Jesus said this

John 14:23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

We will come to him... 2 of them!

 

[God's Truth]

GT, you keep going on and talking about this idea that Jesus is the Father even though I and others have shown you verse that quite cleary show that Jesus interacted with a separate person to himself. You have failed to answer mine and other peoples points.

I have not failed. You just are not paying close enough attention.

I told you plainly that there are three.

I told you plainly that God the Father came in the flesh as a Son.

Who else should a Man pray to if not the Father?

Could you please answer these questions so that I and others can understand your point of view better.

I am glad that you want to understand my beliefs.

In 1 Cor 15:24 it has Jesus, some time after his ascension, handing back the kingdom to the Father, how is that possible if he himself is the Father?

Jesus is the name, the one who came in the flesh, and he died for us. That name and person is God the one and only who is the Father. We must go through what God the Father did for us when He gave Himself up for us. When all is done, we will no longer have to go through what Jesus did for us, for we shall be like Jesus, and there will be no more enemies.

(1 Corinthians 15:24) "..Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.."

You made the claim that the reason why Jesus prayed to the Father in Matt 6 was because he was showing the disciples how and who to pray to and that he wasn't actually speaking to the father because the Father came down to earth as Jesus. If this is true then why do we have Jesus praying to the Father in private away from the disciples?

I didn't say it quite like that, but anyways, you must remember that there are three.

Jesus is God the Father on earth in a physical flesh body, and there is still God the Father who is invisible and lives in unapproachable light.

(Matthew 26:36,39) "..Then Jesus came with them to the spot called Geth·semʹa·ne, and he said to the disciples: “Sit down here while I go over there and pray... And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will..”

You implied that because Jesus was just a man he didn't know the same things as the father, where do you get the idea that it takes Almighty God to remember a single date?

God the Father really came as a Man, He did not pretend to come as a Man.
Men have to be taught, and Jesus was taught...the difference between Jesus and us is that Jesus is God. God the Father spoke to Himself as a Son in the flesh, and we do not get spoken to all the time in quite the same way.

(Matthew 24:36) “..Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.."

(1 Cor 15:24)"..Then the end will come, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.."

How is it possible that Jesus sat at the right hand of God if he is the God who's hand he sits at?

God the Father came as a Man in the flesh, and this Man did right and finished God the Father's work.
We must go through Jesus, we must go through what Jesus tells says.

 

[Rosenritter]

Now that's irony.

I don't agree on disagreeing.

 

[Right Divider]

Clearly spelled out?

Throughout scripture?

Can you point me to the book and chapter where it is spelled out, "This is the Trinity" and "You must believe the Trinity" or "Hear O Israel, the LORD your God is a Trinity?" Since you say it is throughout scripture, can you please give me five such instances?

You are HILARIOUS.

Here is one simple example that shows that your "absolute singularity" doctrine is nonsense (though I'm sure you will not understand it).

Isa 44:6 (KJV)​

(44:6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. ​

 

[NWL]

It's so simple that a child can understand it, but unbelievers will not.

Matt 28:19 (KJV)​

(28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: ​

ONE NAME that belongs to THREE PERSONS.

The Father AND the Son AND the Holy Ghost.

Become a believer and accept what God says about Himself.

As popsthebuilder said this verse does not prove the trinity. The Trinity is that God=Father/Son/HS that all persons make the one God and yet all three persons separate from each other, co-equal and co-eternal.

Matthew 28:19 simply states to baptise in the name (singular) of the father, Son and Holy Spirit. How does that show that God is one who is three separate persons with them being co-equal and co-eternal? It doesn't.

Moreover the word for name in Greek in Matt 28:19 is "onoma" which doesn't have to refer to a literal name. Onoma can mean, in a sense, authority. For example in English we have the phrase, "stop in the name of the law", now tell me, what is the laws name? The law doesn't have a name! But we still understand that phrase don't we now, we understand the "name" to mean stop in the authority of the law. The greek term onoma can mean the same thing, to do an action in the authority of something.

Therefore Matt 28:19 doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the trinity at all, since the phrase, baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy spirit simply means to baptise in the authority the subject(s). The translation name isn't a literal name anymore that the law in the phrase "stop in the name of the law" has a literal name.

Since Matt 28:19 doesn't elaborate what that name is then it is an assumption to think that name is Jehovah, if that's what you think. One would need to prove, with reference, that each person of the trinity firstly posses the name Jehovah for any claim that the name in Matt 28:19 is in regards to the name Jehovah. Which means you need to show the Father has the name Jehovah, Jesus has the name Jehovah and the Holy spirit has the name Jehovah.

 

[keypurr]

Just to let you know I haven't taken John 17:3 out of context at all, if you wish to accuse me of something please demonstrate how I have done it rather than simply claiming it. My point is that when Jesus said the Father is the ONLY true God that he meant the Father is the ONLY true God, how this is taking the verse out of context I don't know.

Jesus statement wasn't him saying that there is only One true God as in the trinity, its who Jesus called the only true God. There is a category: The Only True God

Who did Jesus put in the category of being "the ONLY true God" according to John 17:3?

What does John 17:5 have to do with anything? It certainly doesn't negate any of my reasoning, Jesus asked to be glorified in heaven with the glory he had alongside the Father prior to coming to earth, how does this prove that Jesus is God or disprove anything I said?

I believe Jesus existed alongside God in heaven and had his own glory separate from the Father. Remember JW's believe that the bible teaches that Jesus was the Father first creation (Col 1:15), therefore we have no issue with the fact that Jesus existed and asked to have the glory that he had prior to coming to earth.

Agree except I see the man Jesus as not existing until he was born to Mary. However the spirit son, express image, was his first creation. And had the fullness of his creator. God created a form of God for all things were created through the son.

I give you four out of five stars.


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