The Trinity

[popsthebuilder]

Please tell me what is your understanding of the meaning of Christ? God or man?




Jesus was the complete fullness of God living and dying as a human being.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.



UM....well, I do understand that Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was anointed for His roles under the law (prophet, priest, and king). That the entire fullness of God dwelled in the man Jesus Christ.

When Jesus ascended, the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell the believers.



Well, I'm going to go to heaven, but I'm not from there.



Not wholly of God....but wholly God. Jesus was ALSO wholly man. Not half God and half man.



I put that text in spoiler because I didn't see that it addressed what we are talking about here.



I appreciate your apology, but I really don't need, nor do I want, you to forgive me. If you're angry at me for what I've said in the past, then you shouldn't be.

Of course, we can move forward, but I would appreciate your supporting what you say by at least one verse per statement. I can see the context, myself, if we discuss it further. The verses you quote tells me a lot about where you come up with these ideas.

Now, take a deep breath, please, before you respond.

My understanding is that Christ is GOD and not man, though Christ can dwell in man.

I know you believe that the man Jesus was literally the utter fullness of the One eternal Creator GOD of all existence, and that you use that single verse for verification of your belief, but I understand that verse within context to refer to the capacity to which man can have the Spirit of GOD in them while in the flesh. I don't get how one can think that the utter fullness of GOD was contained within a single man when it is written that none had ever seen GOD. man is said to be unable to even observe the full countenance of GOD, let alone contain it.

The Holy Spirit was in others as Jesus was alive in the flesh. The Holy Spirit was active in the lives of the faithful before and after Jesus.

I'm sorry but if a thing is 100%GOD and 100% man then they would be 200% being. Not to mention all knowing which the man Jesus was not.

The in context verses I posted had to do with the spirit of GOD/ Holy Spirit/ and spirit of Christ to all be the same. Perhaps you should go back over it with an opened mind.

I'm not angry with you and don't forgive you because you need or want it, but because it is the good thing to do in the sight of our Lord.

Come up with...... There is no division of the Spirit of GOD. when I was literally given faith by the mercy of GOD no division or man was shown.

I actually didn't start reading the Bible until some time after I had recieved faith.

Why would GOD sacrifice GOD as a payment to GOD?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The one on the Throne, the Ancient of Days, was not Jesus.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Of course it was Jesus.

No.

We see Jesus in Revelation ch 1 clothed with His Father in His Fathers Glory, which you people reject.

Here is the progression in Rev. same as in Daniel ch 7.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

My understanding is that Christ is GOD and not man, though Christ can dwell in man.

I know you believe that the man Jesus was literally the utter fullness of the One eternal Creator GOD of all existence, and that you use that single verse for verification of your belief, but I understand that verse within context to refer to the capacity to which man can have the Spirit of GOD in them while in the flesh. I don't get how one can think that the utter fullness of GOD was contained within a single man when it is written that none had ever seen GOD. man is said to be unable to even observe the full countenance of GOD, let alone contain it.

The Holy Spirit was in others as Jesus was alive in the flesh. The Holy Spirit was active in the lives of the faithful before and after Jesus.

I'm sorry but if a thing is 100%GOD and 100% man then they would be 200% being. Not to mention all knowing which the man Jesus was not.

The in context verses I posted had to do with the spirit of GOD/ Holy Spirit/ and spirit of Christ to all be the same. Perhaps you should go back over it with an opened mind.

I'm not angry with you and don't forgive you because you need or want it, but because it is the good thing to do in the sight of our Lord.

Come up with...... There is no division of the Spirit of GOD. when I was literally given faith by the mercy of GOD no division or man was shown.

I actually didn't start reading the Bible until some time after I had recieved faith.

Why would GOD sacrifice GOD as a payment to GOD?

http://www.biblecenter.de/bibliothek/autoren/baixeras.php

 

[Bright Raven]

http://www.biblecenter.de/bibliothek/autoren/baixeras.php

Juan Baixeras is a noted non-trinitarian. So what is new? He has the same heretical views as you.

 

[glorydaz]

I know you believe that the man Jesus was literally the utter fullness of the One eternal Creator GOD of all existence, and that you use that single verse for verification of your belief, but I understand that verse within context to refer to the capacity to which man can have the Spirit of GOD in them while in the flesh. I don't get how one can think that the utter fullness of GOD was contained within a single man when it is written that none had ever seen GOD. man is said to be unable to even observe the full countenance of GOD, let alone contain it.

The Holy Spirit was in others as Jesus was alive in the flesh. The Holy Spirit was active in the lives of the faithful before and after Jesus.

So, let me address this part. Mary got pregnant in a miraculous way. Do you agree?

The Spirit of God came upon her and she conceived.

No other man was ever conceived and born that way, correct?

Now, John tells us that the Word was with God and was God. How is it possible to be God and with God at the same time? Then John tells us that the WORD became flesh. That occurred when Jesus was conceived in the womb of a woman by the Holy Spirit. He grew inside her womb as a human being made of flesh and blood. Yet, He was God in the beginning.

No other man ever fits that description, do they?

Men can have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, but Jesus had the very NATURE OF GOD (the fulness of God) in Him. The word says, All things are possible with God, does it not?

 

[glorydaz]

No.

We see Jesus in Revelation ch 1 clothed with His Father in His Fathers Glory, which you people reject.

Here is the progression in Rev. same as in Daniel ch 7.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Speaking of the LORD Jesus Christ. Look familiar?

Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


LA

Oops you skipped something. NO MAN was found worthy...not in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth.

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.​

Not only the "root of David", but the "offspring of David". How can that be LA?

 

[jamie]

You couldn't even if you wanted to.

Yeah, I only try to help other disciples.

 

[popsthebuilder]

http://www.biblecenter.de/bibliothek/autoren/baixeras.php

(Thank you.

Feel special; that is probably the first time I clicked a link from this sight. How can one claim heresy when we know the traditions of man are wrong and Jeremy is based on those traditions?

Anyway; I agree with this wholly. )

The Doctrine of the Trinity claims that Jesus is God, and it is for this reason the doctrine claims that Jesus is thus omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, equal in all ways to the Father. In this short paper we will be discussing the latter, is Jesus omniscient? God is definitely omniscient, thus in order for the Doctrine of the Trinity to hold true, Jesus must also be omniscient. If he is not, then there must be something wrong with this doctrine. At the same time, if we find Jesus not to be omniscient then we also arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is not equal to the Father. If Jesus does not know one thing that the Father knows, then obviously he is not omniscient, and if he is not omniscient like the Father, then he is not equal to the Father either.

Yes Jesus did know somethings that show us he is way above the average man, this is because he is anointed (Messiah), not because he is God. The Prophets all received revelations from God, information that only God and that prophet knew, but this did not mean that the prophets were God. Jesus as we shall see also receives revelations from God, this is why he knows things that other men do not.

(Webster’s Dictionary)*Omniscient*- knowing*all*things-the Omniscient God-.

Mark 13:32:*"No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven*nor the Son, but*ONLY*the Father."

*

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does*not know*the day or hour, and that*ONLY*the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

*

Luke 8:45:*"Jesus then asked,*‘Who touched me?"

*

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying,*"Who touched me?"*It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1:*"The*revelation of Jesus Christ, which*God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him?*GOD!*God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon.*Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words*defines revelation as:

Revelation*– The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary)*Revelation*– God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure*FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know. Again, Jesus is not omniscient.

John 12:49:*"For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and*how to say it."

*

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus*how to say*something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Luke 2:52:*"And*Jesus advanced in wisdom*and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what?*Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1:*"Then Jesus was*led*by the Spirit into the desert."

*

Why does Jesus need to be*led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39:*"He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Fatherif it is possible,*let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know?*IF IT IS POSSIBLE?*He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion*– From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing*EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is*not equal to God.*Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means,*Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

 

[popsthebuilder]

So, let me address this part. Mary got pregnant in a miraculous way. Do you agree?

The Spirit of God came upon her and she conceived.

No other man was ever conceived and born that way, correct?

Now, John tells us that the Word was with God and was God. How is it possible to be God and with God at the same time? Then John tells us that the WORD became flesh. That occurred when Jesus was conceived in the womb of a woman by the Holy Spirit. He grew inside her womb as a human being made of flesh and blood. Yet, He was God in the beginning.

No other man ever fits that description, do they?

Men can have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, but Jesus had the very NATURE OF GOD (the fulness of God) in Him. The word says, All things are possible with God, does it not?

Yes I believe the conception of Jesus to have been miraculous.

Pretty sure John the baptizer was born in much the same fashion.

How is it possible that the word that comes from GOD is GOD? easy; it is the limit to which man can know of GOD, through Christ/ the Spirit.

The Word came from GOD and was GOD. BUT BEING made in the form of man was made of no reputation.

If He Had the fullness of GOD as man then He would have been omniscient.


Why would GOD send GOD to be a sacrifice for, and a payment to GOD?

 

[God's Truth]

Yeah, I only try to help other disciples.

Sounds like you really are a helper for Satan. Why else would you try to condemn me as one not saved though I am?

 

[God's Truth]

So, let me address this part. Mary got pregnant in a miraculous way. Do you agree?

The Spirit of God came upon her and she conceived.

No other man was ever conceived and born that way, correct?

Now, John tells us that the Word was with God and was God. How is it possible to be God and with God at the same time? Then John tells us that the WORD became flesh. That occurred when Jesus was conceived in the womb of a woman by the Holy Spirit. He grew inside her womb as a human being made of flesh and blood. Yet, He was God in the beginning.

No other man ever fits that description, do they?

Men can have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, but Jesus had the very NATURE OF GOD (the fulness of God) in Him. The word says, All things are possible with God, does it not?

All humans have their own spirit within them, but Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes I believe the conception of Jesus to have been miraculous.

Pretty sure John the baptizer was born in much the same fashion.

Opening an old woman's womb and making an old man fertile again are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than impregnating a virgin woman.

How is it possible that the word that comes from GOD is GOD?

You're still confusing "word" with "the Word." Stop it.

Scripture says it, that settles it.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."

easy; it is the limit to which man can know of GOD, through Christ/ the Spirit.

Made up.

The Word came from GOD and was GOD.

Twisting scripture to fit your own theology? That's a Big No No.

Let's see what the verses ACTUALLY say, and then believe that instead:

John 1:1

This is the word used you have taken out and where you have inserted "came from":

It does not mean "came from." It means "by the side of," "near to," or "towards," or "with."

BUT BEING made in the form of man was made of no reputation.

Oh dear...

Philippians 2:7

It says, "emptied Himself having taken the form of a servant having been made in the likeness of men."

"Having been made," not "being made." There's a difference between being made something had having been made something.

Here are the words used:
"emptied"

"having taken"

"having been made"

If He Had the fullness of GOD as man then He would have been omniscient.

If you look up omniscient in the dictionary, you will find the definition of what the Greek pagans used to describe the God of the Bible.

However, if you look at the Bible, God is presented not as "knowing everything there is to know," but as "knowing everything He wants to know." Or do you, by calling God omniscient, force Him to know wickedness, such as how long a video is down to the nanosecond of a pedophile molesting a child, or the exact order of things a rapist does to his victim? Do you force God to keep a running count of the number of hairs on each and every person's head, dead, alive, or who has not come into existence yet?

Those are the kind of ridiculous things you expect God to know by calling Him "omniscient" and not knowing what the Bible says about what God knows. Because the Bible says that God learns things, that when things happen that He did not expect, He is surprised by them.

God says "It never entered my mind" when He learned that His people were sacrificing their children on the altar to Molech.

Why would GOD send GOD to be a sacrifice for, and a payment to GOD?

Have you ever heard of the doctrine of "penal substitution?"

God the Father sent God the Son to be a payment for sin, to fulfill the righteous demands of justice, not as a "payment to God."

 

[God's Truth]

No.

We see Jesus in Revelation ch 1 clothed with His Father in His Fathers Glory, which you people reject.

Here is the progression in Rev. same as in Daniel ch 7.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


LA

You can't see that they are the same?

 

[God's Truth]

Of course, ignore the spirit which was being discussed in the chapter, and ignore every other verse presented to you. Ignore the meaning of the letter versus the spirit of the law. Ignore the fact that Paul was speaking of Moses and comparing his ministry of the law with Christ's ministry of the Spirit without the law....having fulfilled the law in us. Forget all that and just keep parroting out the same nonsense year after year. :carryon:

The Lord is the Spirit.

Believe the Truth.

 

[Tambora]

Isaiah 8
(13) Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
(14) And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Opening an old woman's womb and making an old man fertile again are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than impregnating a virgin woman.



You're still confusing "word" with "the Word." Stop it.

Scripture says it, that settles it.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."



Made up.



Twisting scripture to fit your own theology? That's a Big No No.

Let's see what the verses ACTUALLY say, and then believe that instead:

John 1:1

This is the word used you have taken out and where you have inserted "came from":

It does not mean "came from." It means "by the side of," "near to," or "towards," or "with."



Oh dear...

Philippians 2:7

It says, "emptied Himself having taken the form of a servant having been made in the likeness of men."

"Having been made," not "being made." There's a difference between being made something had having been made something.

Here are the words used:
"emptied"

"having taken"

"having been made"

If you look up omniscient in the dictionary, you will find the definition of what the Greek pagans used to describe the God of the Bible.

However, if you look at the Bible, God is presented not as "knowing everything there is to know," but as "knowing everything He wants to know." Or do you, by calling God omniscient, force Him to know wickedness, such as how long a video is down to the nanosecond of a pedophile molesting a child, or the exact order of things a rapist does to his victim? Do you force God to keep a running count of the number of hairs on each and every person's head, dead, alive, or who has not come into existence yet?

Those are the kind of ridiculous things you expect God to know by calling Him "omniscient" and not knowing what the Bible says about what God knows. Because the Bible says that God learns things, that when things happen that He did not expect, He is surprised by them.

God says "It never entered my mind" when He learned that His people were sacrificing their children on the altar to Molech.



Have you ever heard of the doctrine of "penal substitution?"

God the Father sent God the Son to be a payment for sin, to fulfill the righteous demands of justice, not as a "payment to God."

"God the Father sent God the Son to be a payment for sin, to fulfill the righteous demands of justice, not as a "payment to God."

So GOD sent GOD to be a payment to GOD to you?

Who else would the payment be to? Some pagan deity?

You spew nonsense propagated as truth that has been spoon fed to you through the vanity of man.

My understanding of scripture is not from the explanations of man. In fact my faith was given to me directly and I did not read scripture or go to church prior to that. I didn't read the new testament until a several years ago; whereas my faith was recieved by me in 2011.What I am saying is that my faith didn't come from man, church, or the Bible, and most assuredly didn't come from any explanation by any man, but by the Spirit of GOD/ Christ alone. So I ask that you please please stop referring to by core beliefs as being derivatives of some philosophical view of man. If you want to speak of a person of interest that may or may not have had a similar understanding to me then let us discuss Arius.

 

[God's Truth]

"God the Father sent God the Son to be a payment for sin, to fulfill the righteous demands of justice, not as a "payment to God."

So GOD sent GOD to be a payment to GOD to you?

Who else would the payment be to? Some pagan deity?

You spew nonsense propagated as truth that has been spoon fed to you through the vanity of man.

My understanding of scripture is not from the explanations of man. In fact my faith was given to me directly and I did not read scripture or go to church prior to that. I didn't read the new testament until a several years ago; whereas my faith was recieved by me in 2011.What I am saying is that my faith didn't come from man, church, or the Bible, and most assuredly didn't come from any explanation by any man, but by the Spirit of GOD/ Christ alone. So I ask that you please please stop referring to by core beliefs as being derivatives of some philosophical view of man. If you want to speak of a person of interest that may or may not have had a similar understanding to me then let us discuss Arius.

You must have heard/read something somewhere at sometime about Jesus, because faith comes from hearing/reading it.

 

[God's Truth]

No one is saved by Jesus without first hearing. That is the truth.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You must have heard/read something somewhere at sometime about Jesus, because faith comes from hearing/reading it.

Of course I had heard of Jesus.

I went to a Christian school in kindergarten. My favorite color was red at that time because of what I can only describe as awareness of the blood of Christ. Yet shortly after that I became some sort of agnostic and/ or atheist.

But I did indeed gain faith from hearing..... directly....in a miraculous uhm....event, happening, occurrence wholly outside of my control.

Hearing does not mean reading only, right?

 

[jamie]

All humans have their own spirit within them, but Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Is that because he was made like us?

"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17)