God's Truth
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When are you going to address my posts to you?
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
When are you going to address my posts to you?
Rosenritter
New member
It's very clear that the Logos was with God and was God with a capital G. John specifies that this God created all things. That means it's the same God that we read about in Genesis 1. In the beginning, God... and In the beginning was the Word... invoke the same backdrop and event, and the same creation of the world.
No "god" created the world. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1.
He wasn't directing those words to Jesus? Jesus was the one who answered. You're suggesting it would be correctly translated as "OMG
" perhaps? If so then Jesus might have had something else to say to Thomas instead. Something about "taking the name of the LORD in vain" rather than affirming his belief, instead of praising those who would believe likewise later on faith.Rather, "My Lord and my God" is the correct interpretation of the Son of God. Elsewhere John wouldn't have introduced us by telling us that the Word was God and that the Word created all things. We ARE told that Jesus created all things. We ARE told that God is the Creator. We are NEVER told that "the Son of God is not God" which seems to be the unsupported assumption you (and others here) are relying on as if it were some sort of given. It's not a given. That assumption is unscriptural.
Regardless of any Jewish traditions, Christians have a different level of scriptural authority.
2Ti 3:16-17 KJV
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
No, it is best for us to rely on all scripture, not to pick and choose and discard parts that become inconvenient to us. There is no disagreement. As Jesus himself said, the scripture cannot be broken. John 10:35. Also one of Christ's own identifications of himself as our God, by the way.
But according to the judge of the quick and the dead, it's the saints of Christ that will reign over the nations.
Rev 20:4 KJV
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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lifeisgood
New member
Jesus is NOT the Spirit.
Jesus IS the Lord.
Jesus said that the Father would send the Spirit in Jesus' name (John 14:26).
Jesus addressed the Holy Spirit as "He" and NOT "me".
Jesus said in John 16:14-15: “He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”
It matters not how much you say that they are the same person, the Bible in its ORIGINAL CONTEXT refutes your assertion.
Your doctrine is from oneness Pentecostal groups. Your doctrine sounds similar to T.D. Jakes'.
====
The one on the white horse of Revelation 6:2 is not the Lord (he has a bow but no arrows).
on the other hand:
The one on the white horse of Revelation 19:11-16 is the Faithful and True, which is our Lord Christ Jesus coming to pour His wrath over the Earth.
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lifeisgood
New member
No.
No, I do NOT agree that the Father is ‘a’ Spirit.
“God is spirit,” Jesus declared, “and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).
God is spirit. There is NO definite article in the Greek text before the word spirit, emphasizing the quality of the word.
The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit!
Where is the verse saying that God the Father is called the Son as you assert?
No.
There is the Holy Spirit that the Father sends at the petition of the Son.
No! No! No! Jesus IS NOT God the Father. ALL you, gt, are doing is asserting YOUR idea and NOT what the Bible say.
Your doctrine sounds like T.D. Jakes’. He preaches just like you.
God's Truth
New member
The Rider has a Sword. The Sword is the Spirit's. The Rider is Jesus and is the Spirit.
Ephesians 6:17
“Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”
How do you get that disproves Jesus being the Spirit?
There are three. How do you get that Jesus should say 'me'?
I believe the three exist at the same time, and modalists do not believe that.
The scriptures PLAINLY say the Lord is the Spirit.
How do you think you can get out of that?
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
lifeisgood
New member
Which rider the one in Rev. 6 or the one in Rev. 19?
Another example of you taking the text out of its ORIGINAL context and parroting your doctrine.
Jesus said in John 16:14-15: “He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”
Here we go again. You are NOT reading for comprehension.
No! Holy writ refutes you. It matters not how much you profess that it does not.
Another perfect example of gt taking the text out of its ORIGINAL context.
God's Truth
New member
We have been talking about Jesus, the Rider with the sword.
Notice that you ignore the scriptures that plainly, clearly say the Lord is the Spirit.
Why do you refuse and not believe?
You may as well stop because you can't prove He is the Holy Spirit. Try again
marhig
Well-known member
Jesus isn't the Spirit, he isn't the father, and he isn't God. Jesus is the Christ. The Son of the living God. And the father is his God and father. He only speaks what the father gives him to speak and everything is done through him.
John 14
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Ephesians 6
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
John 7
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me
John 12
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
God was in Jesus
2 Corinthians 5
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Look at Paul in ephesians 1, God the Father and Christ are separate. And this is shown in the rest of the verses I've quoted (below) and some show that the father is the God and father of Jesus Christ.
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
And here
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Corinthians 11
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
Colossians 1
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 1
Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And this
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all
Romans 16
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2 Corinthians 13
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Galatians 1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
And this
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 6
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 4
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Colossians 1
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And this
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
1 Thessalonians 1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And the same is written in 2 Thessalonians 1
Also
1 Timothy 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Timothy 1
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord
Philemon 1
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
James 1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
1 Peter 5
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,
2 Peter 1
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1 John 1
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
2 John 1
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Jude 1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Jesus isn't the father, (as the verses above show), he isn't God, and the father who is God, is his God and father as shown above!
Sorry for the long post.
marhig
Well-known member
I will read this properly tomorrow as it's late here, goodnight
keypurr
Well-known member
It's very clear that the Logos was with God and was God with a capital G. John specifies that this God created all things. That means it's the same God that we read about in Genesis 1. In the beginning, God... and In the beginning was the Word... invoke the same backdrop and event, and the same creation of the world.
No "god" created the world. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1.
He wasn't directing those words to Jesus? Jesus was the one who answered. You're suggesting it would be correctly translated as "OMG
Rather, "My Lord and my God" is the correct interpretation of the Son of God. Elsewhere John wouldn't have introduced us by telling us that the Word was God and that the Word created all things. We ARE told that Jesus created all things. We ARE told that God is the Creator. We are NEVER told that "the Son of God is not God" which seems to be the unsupported assumption you (and others here) are relying on as if it were some sort of given. It's not a given. That assumption is unscriptural.
Regardless of any Jewish traditions, Christians have a different level of scriptural authority.
2Ti 3:16-17 KJV
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
No, it is best for us to rely on all scripture, not to pick and choose and discard parts that become inconvenient to us. There is no disagreement. As Jesus himself said, the scripture cannot be broken. John 10:35. Also one of Christ's own identifications of himself as our God, by the way.
But according to the judge of the quick and the dead, it's the saints of Christ that will reign over the nations.
Rev 20:4 KJV
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
You do not seem to understand that the logos is spirit, the express image of the Father. God created all through this spirit. Jesus was a man, not God. The logos went into him at his anointing.
Sent from my iPad using TOL
RealityJerk
New member
Paul using the term “Law of Christ”, is no different than when we see the term “Law Of Moses”, or the “Spirit Of Elijah”, in place for “The Spirit Of God”. Christ received the law from God, and so did Moses, through the pre-incarnate Christ, in the form of the angel of YHWH. The commander of YHWH's armies. It was actually the Son of YHWH, that handed the tablets to Moses on Mount Horeb, not YHWH the heavenly Father.
The point is that, the medium or conduit, through which YHWH works, is often synonymous or identified with Him. That's why the bible tells us that, the prophet Elisha, received the Spirit Of Elijah. And John The Baptist, came in the power and spirit of Elijah. This is not to be taken literally. We all know that Elisha, did not receive the spirit of Elijah, but rather the spirit of YHWH, and John the baptist, actually came in the spirit and power of God, not of another prophet. The medium, through which God works, is often identified with God Himself.
We find references in the bible, of angels being identified as God. Moses as God. David as God. The judges of Israel are “God”. The Ark Of The Covenant that was the medium through which YHWH manifested His presence to the Israelites, is identified as God, bearing the very name of YHWH. In that case, we have an example of a physical, inanimate object, being identified with the name of YHWH. We find this throughout the Hebrew bible. That doesn't imply, that these individuals, these messengers, mediums / conduits / God's official representatives, are literally, ontologically, in essence, YHWH.
The Hebrew mind, reconciled these supposed paradoxes, by identifying the means through which God functions, works, reveals Himself, in the world, as being one with God, hence the identification with God Himself.
There are many gods and saviors in the bible. What the above passages imply, is that YHWH is the ultimate source of divinity and salvation. It doesn't mean, that there aren't other gods or saviors.
God created the universe, through His angels. The Angels, used the power of God, to create this world. That divine power and authority was delligated, from YHWH to His Son, then to the angels. The angels are gods, under the authority of YHWH.
In conclusion. The Law of God, is the Law of Moses, The Law of Messiah. The Spirit and Power of God, is the Spirit and Power of Elijah, which John The Baptist was endowed with. Moses isn't God, Messiah isn't God, Elijah isn't God, there's only one almighty God, and that is YHWH, the non-contingent deity. The Hebrew bible, is the foundation of our faith, as disciples of Messiah. The Hebrew bible, is the only bible, that Messiah and His twelve apostles based their faith on. Their beliefs, were all founded, established by the Torah, Prophets and Psalms.
The words of Messiah in the gospel of Matthew, a gospel written in the language of Messiah by one of the twelve apostles, has precedence, more authority, than the three other gospels. The epistles of the twelve apostles, not counting 2nd Peter, which is a forgery, should be counted as sacred writ. Scripture. Paul / Saul, was not one of the twelve apostles, hence has no authority over anyone's faith or relationship with Messiah. Paul/Saul is a test for Israel, one who teaches against Torah. Yeshua, warned us about Paul, in the gospel of Matthew.
You see, the bible is like a garden. And in this garden, there are two trees. One tree bears the fruit of life, another yields poisonous fruit. In the holy garden, there are two trees, one from which comes life, and the other death. So, if you follow Paul/Saul (The enemy of David/Messiah), you will be cast out from Messiah's kingdom, as one of the lawless ones. Notice, how practically, all of your theology, originates with Paul. Most of your proof-texts, come from this man, who is not one of Messiah's twelve apostles. Paulianity, rather than the faith of Israel. That's essentially what you're following. Paulianity.
God's Truth
New member
I gave scriptures that plainly say the Lord is the Spirit.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus isn't the Spirit, he isn't the father, and he isn't God. Jesus is the Christ. The Son of the living God. And the father is his God and father. He only speaks what the father gives him to speak and everything is done through him.
John 14
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Ephesians 6
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
John 7
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me
John 12
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
God was in Jesus
2 Corinthians 5
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Look at Paul in ephesians 1, God the Father and Christ are separate. And this is shown in the rest of the verses I've quoted (below) and some show that the father is the God and father of Jesus Christ.
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
And here
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Corinthians 11
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
Colossians 1
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 1
Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And this
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all
Romans 16
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2 Corinthians 13
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Galatians 1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
And this
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 6
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 4
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Colossians 1
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And this
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
1 Thessalonians 1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And the same is written in 2 Thessalonians 1
Also
1 Timothy 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Timothy 1
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord
Philemon 1
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
James 1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
1 Peter 5
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,
2 Peter 1
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1 John 1
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
2 John 1
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Jude 1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Jesus isn't the father, (as the verses above show), he isn't God, and the father who is God, is his God and father as shown above!
Sorry for the long post.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
You can't get out of it. You have to believe it.
RealityJerk
New member
God Is FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT
God's Truth
New member
The Lord is the Spirit.
God's Truth
New member
So you don't like Paul. I will prove my beliefs to you then with John. How about that?
Jesus is the Spirit. All these scriptures tell us Jesus is the Spirit.
Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.
Rosenritter
New member
If Jesus is a man that was merely possessed by a spirit called Logos, and not actually a spirit himself, then who is talking in John's vision in Revelation? He calls himself JESUS.
Revelation 22:12-16 KJV
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
If your theory of a separate Logos non-Jesus were correct, we'd expect for it to make some sort of showing. Except there's no such separate thing. Jesus was not possessed by a spirit, and the only one that matters now is he who is properly called Jesus.
A Jesus, I might add, that calls himself "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last." He who is coming is that first and the last, who calls himself Jesus.
Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Will you please stop repeating that "spirit Logos possessed Jesus" nonsense? I don't think I've heard you say much anything else in my year on these boards. Is that really what you want to stand for?
Rosenritter
New member
Scripture is scripture regardless of who the Holy Spirit used to pen the passage. If you are Christian you shouldn't be disputing this. Am I making a bad assumption? Are you something other than Christian?