Every scripture in the Hebrew Bible, which is the only bible the Messiah and His 12 apostles recognized, clearly states that the Torah will be kept after Messiah returns.
Fulfilled: Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel.
Ephesians 1:10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
John 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Amos 9:11-12.
Jesus says all things are restored: Matthew 17:11-12; and Mark 9:12. David’s fallen tent is restored see Acts 15:16.
Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Paul is a minister of the New Covenant.
2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Paul even quotes Jesus making the New Covenant.
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
The Messiah's mission, wasn't over the day he left this earth and ascended to heaven. He hasn't returned and heaven and earth is still here with us, hence the Torah is still applicable to Israel. Fulfilled, doesn't mean end or nullify, but rather, through His teaching we receive full understanding of Torah. You're focused on one word, in that passage, and ignoring the rest:
Mat 5:17* Think not that I am come to destroythe law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.*
Mat 5:18* For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.*
Mat 5:19* Whosoever thereforeshall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness/anomois.
The 12 apostles and their students, were zealous of Torah:
Act 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The 12 apostles, never taught against Torah observance. Peter gave instructions to Shaul, that the gentile believers, in Messiah, did not have to keep Torah. This doesn't imply that Israel, those who will reign with Messiah, do not have to keep Torah. Those who keep Torah will be called "great" in the Kingdom of heaven, those who do not, may not suffer the second death, but they will not reign with Messiah.
Those who reign with Messiah, over the nations, are the remnant of Israel. The members of Messiah's royal family. You have to keep Torah, in order to be "Great" in YHWH's Kingdom, or one who reigns. Keeping Torah is not a prerequisite for salvation, but it is a requirement for Israel. You are not Israel, if you do not keep Torah.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
In the future, the whole earth will have to keep the feasts of tabernacles, and essentially, keep Torah. So, your argument that Torah is nullified, is simply wrong. We're not in the new covenant age. That age will be established, when Israel is restored and the nations come under its guidance and governance.
The blood of the new covenant, seals and initiates the process leading to the restoration of Israel and YHWH's creation. The New Covenant, is made with Israel and Judah, and it will be fully consummated, when Messiah returns and establishes the Kingdom of YHWH on earth. Until then, we are still waiting for our full redemption. The restoration, overtakes the darkness, as the sun overtakes the night. We are at the dawn of a new aeon, a transitioning, but we are not there yet.
I just can't see how anyone can get around it that the elect can be led astray. Why are we warned if we couldn't be led astray?
One must become a sheep to be elected. As for the sheep being deceived masses, from where do you get that?
I will just list some warning scriptures and then if you want to talk about it more somewhere else we can do that.
People can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38; to hold on and stand firm, Hebrews 3:14, 1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.
God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.
We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.
I think you might be misunderstanding what I am saying. I know that we can go astray. But I make a distinction between the sheep (capable of being led astray), and the guide/ teacher/ messenger/ actual prophet/ shepard/ elect.
I don't think you make such a distinction as per my understanding of your words, but I would like to talk about it. I know you posted scripture showing that the saved can fall away, and I do not deny it.
Fulfilled: Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel.
Ephesians 1:10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
John 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Amos 9:11-12.
Jesus says all things are restored: Matthew 17:11-12; and Mark 9:12. David’s fallen tent is restored see Acts 15:16.
You must first understand that sin is the work of man alone.
We are free, and must be if expected to not feel as if slaves or prisoners. Our freedom is the Will of GOD that we might come into faithfulness with HIM out of genuine desire to do HIS Will. Though sin is of the hands of man and GOD created man. If we had been created without freedom then we would not be capable of loving GOD out of reciprocation of the love that GOD shows creation. The root of evil is greed. Is GOD greedy for giving us both freedom and mercy and grace.
In the future, the whole earth will have to keep the feasts of tabernacles, and essentially, keep Torah. So, your argument that Torah is nullified, is simply wrong. We're not in the new covenant age. That age will be established, when Israel is restored and the nations come under its guidance and governance.
Jesus fulfilled the law and the Prophets.
That means it was all about him.
Circumcision of the flesh was a sign and a seal.
Jesus fulfilled that, for he circumcises our hearts and the Holy Spirit is our sign and seal.
The observance of special days were all about Jesus, and it is now worthless to one's salvation to observe special days.
Jesus put us in him and we observe him all day everyday.
The Jews used to have to do various external washings.
Jesus washes us inside and out.
The purification/ceremonial works required the blood of animals.
Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God, and his blood washes away our sins once and for all.
The Jews used to have to do the purification/ceremonial works, just to be able to go to the tent, and later the temple, where God's Spirit was.
Since Jesus, he washes us and we become the temple.
Such is obvious to anyone who has read the Bible. God did not want Adam and Eve to disobey. His will was stated in his commandment, "thou shalt not touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Adam and Eve averted his will. This story is repeated in various forms throughout its pages. When God gives a command, and his creation defies that command, they are going against his will.
You should consider my question based on not a personal temperal setting, but in reference to ultimately. Do you think the Will of GOD can be averted by man? Do you really think man can change what will happen by the will of what created and formed man and it's habitat and the space that said habitat dwells in?
Perhaps one can change what they perceive GOD will do in reference to their own soul or life or experience due to GOD given faith or repentance due to shame through the GOD given selfless conscience but that isn't to say that GOD didnt already know the exact point at which all or any of those things would take place.
It is our limited capacities that limit us; but GOD is all mighty remember. And invade there is any confusion as to what that might entail; might= power and truth/ knowledge equals power. If GOD is allmighty and all powerful and all knowing then HE is omniscient and omnipotent.
We are free, and must be if expected to not feel as if slaves or prisoners. Our freedom is the Will of GOD that we might come into faithfulness with HIM out of genuine desire to do HIS Will. Though sin is of the hands of man and GOD created man. If we had been created without freedom then we would not be capable of loving GOD out of reciprocation of the love that GOD shows creation. The root of evil is greed. Is GOD greedy for giving us both freedom and mercy and grace.
Such is obvious to anyone who has read the Bible. God did not want Adam and Eve to disobey. His will was stated in his commandment, "thou shalt not touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Adam and Eve averted his will. This story is repeated in various forms throughout its pages. When God gives a command, and his creation defies that command, they are going against his will.
Well, I know I can't go astray, and I don't think that you would; however, people can go astray. I have seen people on fire for the Lord, and now they seem to haven't lost all sensibilities.
John the Baptist, came in the spirit and power of Elijah. Elisha the prophet, received the spirit of Elijah. Are you implying, that since there is only one spirit, that the spirit of Elijah is God's spirit? Just because the term, "spirit of Christ" is used in the bible, doesn't imply that Jesus' spirit is ontologically, identical to God's.
Indeed; the Spirit of GOD was within both Elias and John the baptizer to some extent. Those who go before the Lord readying the world for His appearance and salvation; doing the will of GOD in their life, surely have that will in them due to the Spirit of GOD also in them to some measure.
First, pretending that the only acceptable evidence lies in the Greek manuscripts is misleading. Wallace neglects to mention any of the other areas of evidence which come to bear on this question.
Second, his emphasis on late manuscripts neglects to inform the reader that most copies of the epistle of 1 John are late manuscripts to begin with.
Thirdly, his information is even inaccurate (wrong) even if we allow for his misleading statement. I'm looking at a list of eleven manuscripts right now.
So far Wallace is non-objective, misleading, and not even correct in the technical sense. He's not presenting an honest paper, it's a one-sided slanted argument. And that's just in the first couple sentences.
He continues on with a fantasy story about Erasmus and a straw-man argument that he supplies for his opponents. How much more does this need to be picked apart? Here's some factors that Wallace neglected to mention:
1) Although 1 John 5:7 is a minority reading, other bible translations will favor the reading of a passage based on even less Greek manuscript evidence
2) 1 John 5:7 may be missing from most Greek manuscripts, but it is well preserved in the manuscripts of other languages, including the Latin.
3) The Greek grammar of the surrounding passage is fatally flawed with the omission of 1 John 5:7. The passage is only correctly written with the rules of Greek grammar when the full text is included.
Spoiler
Michael Maynard, M.L.S. in his 382 page book "A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8" quotes from Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) who remarks concerning this verse in his Theological Orations: . . . "he has not been consistent in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourselves disclaim in the case of Deity?"
4. One has to wonder why John would speak of "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater" if he had only named the "witness of men" in verse 8? Even aside from the Greek grammar, any translation of the passage is broken without it. The gap is obvious.
5. The passage is quoted and referred to by witnesses that far precede the earliest of any manuscript in existence. Tertullian argues against his opponents use of the passage in 200 AD, Cyprian of Carthage wrote "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in 250 AD. And that's a start, there's more. We have witnesses that establish that this passage was known as scripture from John.
6. The exclusion of the passage is easily plausible for a combination of reasons. First, scribes more easily fail to copy repetitions than they are likely to add addition text. As case and example in point, Jerome is on the record of complaining that his scribes were often failing to transcribe this very exact passage when he was making his copies of the Vulgate. Second, although the passage is disliked by Unitarians and Arians, it isn't always convenient for Trinitarians either. I've heard this admitted from both Unitarian and Trinitarian sources.
For example, Jack Chick (Trinitarian) comments:
But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.
I think that's plenty for one post. I doubt anyone here is going to fully read those articles anyway. So let's sum this up again:
Although the passage is a minority Greek reading, it is in some Greek manuscripts, and it is well supported in the translations of that Greek in Latin, etc. As for the Greek manuscripts, those without the 1 John 5:7 are grammatically flawed, and those with 1 John 5:7 are grammatically correct. The internal reading of the surrounding text obviously points to "three in heaven" that are otherwise absent, and there is a nice long list of quotes and other writings that reference this passage as scripture from before anyone's earlier manuscript of any sort.
That's it for tonight on this. I'm not looking to to fight for the sake of fighting.
So you don't believe the term "Law of Christ", implies Christ's divinity? I believe you made that assertion, but if I'm wrong, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I noticed that there were two issues you were discussing, one with the law and the other with the spirit. The spirit of Christ and the law of Christ. If you don't believe those terms imply or prove Christ's divinity, then that was my mistake.
Ah, I understand what you were reacting to now. I sincerely apologize. It's just that you sounded really strange and random.
1 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
(9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
No one has made any allegation that Moses is God. Moses sinned against God, God did not let him enter the promised land. No one ever came to Moses and said "you maketh yourself God" and Moses never ever called himself by names or titles of God.
1 Corinthians 9:21 KJV
(21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
We have a different situation with Christ, whom John introduces as the Word who was God, and then ends his gospel with "my Lord and my God." If Jesus were not actually our God in the flesh (which it actually does say elsewhere) then it would be very important for Paul (and any other writer) to make that distinction clear.
So to me this is a fairly obvious correlation and evidence, it's another strand woven around all the others that are already there. I am not asking you to be persuaded by that passage. There's far stronger and more direct. That was an indirect reference I noticed in passing that I'd not noticed before.
You're also wrong about us not being under the law. We will always be under, subject to, bound by, YHWH's law. Not one jot or tittle, shall pass from the law, until all is fulfilled. All is not fulfilled yet, hence every disciple is subject to YHWH's law.
What is the law then Reality? By the way, I think you missed one of the points of that post. The word "law" has multiple meanings. What meaning do you mean? If you understood what you were reading, you should know to define this term.
The blood of the new covenant, seals and initiates the process leading to the restoration of Israel and YHWH's creation. The New Covenant, is made with Israel and Judah, and it will be fully consummated, when Messiah returns and establishes the Kingdom of YHWH on earth. Until then, we are still waiting for our full redemption. The restoration, overtakes the darkness, as the sun overtakes the night. We are at the dawn of a new aeon, a transitioning, but we are not there yet.
