The Trinity

The Trinity


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Rosenritter

New member
Re. Rosenritter's post #14751:

Nonsense. I John 5:7 does not harmonize with the rest of John's writing. It is NOT "plainly supported" by any kind of evidence. In fact, it DISRUPTS the grammar of the passage. What ancient witnesses far predate the earliest mss. that we have access to? Name them.

Who else is "picking their side regardless of the evidence"? You are a piece of work. That final smug statement of yours applies beautifully to you.

Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) said the grammar was broken.

...he has not been consistent in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourselves disclaim in the case of Deity?"
This quote tells us two things: first, that the grammar of 1 John chapter 5 is broken without verse 7; and second, that the damaged copies existed and were common in the time of Gregory.

Have you really researched this from more than one perspective? There's a long line of references (and even quote) of 1 John 5:7 that go back much further. For example, Tertullian made reference when he was denouncing Praxaes, but he was protesting against one interpretation of it and instead arguing his own. I'd be willing to help you find some of these if I you could assure me you weren't simply in a fighting mood. Private message perhaps?

 
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JudgeRightly

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JudgeRightly

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What?

So you think the elect can actually be turned from the Will of GOD? the elect of GOD? really?
Yes. Just because they are the elect does not mean they are saved.

For instance, our President is "elected." That doesn't mean he will be saved. It just means he was chosen to perform a task, which is to run the country.
 

JudgeRightly

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Re. Rosenritter's post #14751:

Nonsense. I John 5:7 does not harmonize with the rest of John's writing. It is NOT "plainly supported" by any kind of evidence. In fact, it DISRUPTS the grammar of the passage. What ancient witnesses far predate the earliest mss. that we have access to? Name them.

Who else is "picking their side regardless of the evidence"? You are a piece of work. That final smug statement of yours applies beautifully to you.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy3:16-17&version=NKJV
 

marhig

Well-known member
And when I have a bank, there is an account created with sign-in information. That account has all authority granted to it by myself to operate in my name. It's another form of myself, that exists within the realm of the bank. The bank can't handle a flesh and blood me, but it can handle the account. Thus, the account is myself come in another form.

All of the references that I see that you use for Father and Son and the rest are easily explained by the metaphors that would be required were God to come in the flesh. And we are told that God came in the flesh, so therefore.... all those objections don't have the weight you keep thinking they do.
Does your bank account have freewill like Jesus did?
 

popsthebuilder

New member
1. Remove the spaces from [ spoiler ] and [ / spoiler ] and put those on either side of the text. It's like the [ quote ] and [ / quote ] tags. I have to type them like that here or they will work for real.

For example,
Spoiler
This is inside the tags now. I figured this out from looking at the quoted text from a post by Lon.

2. You do not know how to use boldface? Are you using a phone? If you're using the normal web interface you highlight the text and use Control-B or you can highlight the text and use the big "B" button at the top of the text entry place.

It's good for everyone if we can stress each other less by making what we say easier on the eyes and easier to understand.
I am using a phone.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
If God knows what a creature will do, and the creature cannot change from this (because of the definition of knowing just given) then when God creates creation that has no other option but to sin and commit atrocity, then God would be the author of that sin and atrocity. God, in his infinite knowledge (as accepted for the sake of argument already) could have chosen to create that which would not sin, but he chooses to create sin?

Think about the implications of what you just said please Pops.
I didn't say man wasn't free to change.

I said GOD knows what they will do and be, and that GOD is merciful.

I understand the implications based on limited power and cognition. But we are speaking of GOD, who formed all things and through Him allnthinhs are sustained.

GOD is long-suffering.
 

God's Truth

New member
What don't YOU get about the one true God SENDINGHis Son to come to earth as a man?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, KJV)


"He that receiveth you, receiveth me; and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that SENT me." (Matthew 10:40, KJV)

There are three, do you dispute that?

There is God the Father, He is a Spirit, invisible and lives in unapproachable light. Do you agree?

There is God the Father with a body, and in this state He is called the Son.

There is the Holy Spirit of God the Father which goes forth without limit. Do you agree?

Because Jesus IS God the Father, because he has a physical body, he is called a Son.
 

God's Truth

New member
1. Remove the spaces from [ spoiler ] and [ / spoiler ] and put those on either side of the text. It's like the [ quote ] and [ / quote ] tags. I have to type them like that here or they will work for real.

For example,
Spoiler
This is inside the tags now. I figured this out from looking at the quoted text from a post by Lon.

2. You do not know how to use boldface? Are you using a phone? If you're using the normal web interface you highlight the text and use Control-B or you can highlight the text and use the big "B" button at the top of the text entry place.

It's good for everyone if we can stress each other less by making what we say easier on the eyes and easier to understand.

Kudos to pops for being able to reply and as well as he does and all this on a phone. Very admirable. This of course is my own opinion, but what a show of the love of God and the desire to speak about Him. Pops, I am wondering why you don't get an iPad.
 

marhig

Well-known member
Mrs. Mary; thank you first.

As a side note, with apology for putting you on the spot;

Do you proclaim your own salvation to those whom you, in your limited perception, find to be outside of the gate?

Though it may seem as if this is some stab or insult; you know it is not.

Please do answer simply and concisely.

Thank you.

Strange question pops? :)

Firstly, I don't like calling people unsaved, outsiders or outside the gate, I have hope for everyone. I've even seen people say that innocent babies are unsaved, it sickens me to think of others like that. Probably because I don't see salvation as many others do. And I don't think of myself as elect, or a saint in the way some others do either, I'm just an unprofitable servant, I'm nothing special. And I remember what I myself was like without God so I can't say anything about anyone else.

As I said I see being saved differently to many. I believe that when I first truly believed and repented, I believe that God forgave me of my past sins, from then i knew in my heart, that I had to live by the will of God and turn from sin. And once God blessed me with the Spirit, he through Christ is helping me to overcome daily, saving me from death, satan and this world, as long as I truly love him from my heart, always put him first and always be ready to do his will and obey him, and I believe that he will never leave me and I am sealed by the Spirit if I remain in his goodness and do his will.

I also believe that I have to endure to the end, deny myself, take up my cross and suffer whatever is set before me, and keep my faith, living by God's will until my last breath and Jesus is our perfect example to follow. He lived the way perfectly. I'm not to love the things of the world, or the works of the flesh, and I'm not to look back at my old life, and God by his grace, is saving me through faith, he is changing my heart more and more so that those things are starting to mean nothing to me anymore. God has saved me from death and darkness and has given me life and light through his precious son Christ Jesus, and I'm truly blessed.

I hope that wasn't too long, I'm just wondering, why did you want to know?
 

God's Truth

New member
If God knows what a creature will do, and the creature cannot change from this (because of the definition of knowing just given) then when God creates creation that has no other option but to sin and commit atrocity, then God would be the author of that sin and atrocity. God, in his infinite knowledge (as accepted for the sake of argument already) could have chosen to create that which would not sin, but he chooses to create sin?

Think about the implications of what you just said please Pops.

I agree with you basically; and, to accentuate this important message that you are giving, if I am understanding you correctly, God, knowing what humans would do, did, in fact, at times, did harden some people's hearts, to bring about a desired outcome. HOWEVER, this proves that man has free will.

Any serious and in depth person who wants to discuss this further, please do not be ashamed to ask me for scriptures and ask questions.
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
No, it would say "but it is not possible" if it meant "it was not possible."
Matthew: 24. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Isaiah: 42. 1. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6. I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah: 45. 1. Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Mark: 13. 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke: 18. 7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 27. And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Romans: 8. 28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm gonna stop so no-one gets mad about reading scripture.

Do you still think the elect and called and destined can be deceived ultimately?

I really hope not.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Kudos to pops for being able to reply and as well as he does and all this on a phone. Very admirable. This of course is my own opinion, but what a show of the love of God and the desire to speak about Him. Pops, I am wondering why you don't get an iPad.
I'm rather poor friend.

This is a good morning though.

peace.....genuine joy.... Thank you.... And again;

peace
 

God's Truth

New member
Strange question pops? :)

Firstly, I don't like calling people unsaved, outsiders or outside the gate,

You have done that, though.

I have hope for everyone. I've even seen people say that innocent babies are unsaved, it sickens me to think of others like that. Probably because I don't see salvation as many others do. And I don't think of myself as elect, or a saint in the way some others do either, I'm just an unprofitable servant, I'm nothing special. And I remember what I myself was like without God so I can't say anything about anyone else.
Yet you do.

As I said I see being saved differently to many. I believe that when I first truly believed and repented, I believe that God forgave me of my past sins, from then i knew in my heart, that I had to live by the will of God and turn from sin. And once God blessed me with the Spirit, he through Christ is helping me to overcome daily, saving me from death, satan and this world, as long as I truly love him from my heart, always put him first and always be ready to do his will and obey him, and I believe that he will never leave me and I am sealed by the Spirit if I remain in his goodness and do his will.
However, you act as if anything you say to others is from God, no matter if it is not. You are to take responsibility of yourself and your actions.

I also believe that I have to endure to the end, deny myself, take up my cross and suffer whatever is set before me, and keep my faith, living by God's will until my last breath and Jesus is our perfect example to follow. He lived the way perfectly. I'm not to love the things of the world, or the works of the flesh, and I'm not to look back at my old life, and God by his grace, is saving me through faith, he is changing my heart more and more so that those things are starting to mean nothing to me anymore.

God has saved me from death and darkness and has given me life and light through his precious son Christ Jesus, and I'm truly blessed.

I hope that wasn't too long, I'm just wondering, why did you want to know?
 

God's Truth

New member
I'm rather poor friend.

This is a good morning though.

peace.....genuine joy.... Thank you.... And again;

peace

Thank you, and good morning to you.

I understand.

Just thought that you were in the U.S., and that you were on a plan and where a free ipad is offered. Not that anything is completely free though.
 

God's Truth

New member
Matthew: 24. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Isaiah: 42. 1. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6. I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah: 45. 1. Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Mark: 13. 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke: 18. 7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 27. And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Romans: 8. 28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm gonna stop so no-one gets mad about reading scripture.

Do you still think the elect and called and destined can be deceived ultimately?

I really hope not.

I believe because of the scriptures that God chooses us, and we are called elect because we believe and obey Him. Calvinists say they are elected and chosen by God but they do not know why.

I believe Calvinism is a false doctrine.

As for the elect and called being deceived...they can be deceived that is why we are all warned.
 

marhig

Well-known member
You have done that, though.


Yet you do.


However, you act as if anything you say to others is from God, no matter if it is not. You are to take responsibility of yourself and your actions.
No Gt I have never called anyone unsaved, I can say that with my hand on my heart, I don't look at others like that, I have hope for everyone.

Care to show me where you think that I've said that? Thanks

And what I mean about not saying anything about anyone else is, I too used to live in and love the world and the things of the flesh, I'm only being saved by Gods grace, so who am I to judge those who don't yet know God? I don't see myself as better than them or above anyone. I can only speak to them about the things of God and have hope for them and leave the judging to God.

And I back up what I say with scripture. You think that what I say is not from God, because you look at everything in the bible as literal and natural not Spiritual. Jesus' words are Spirit, and once we have the ear to hear we hear what the Spirit says. And God gives us understanding through progressive revelation.
 
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