The Trinity

[lifeisgood]

1. If this was in answer to something, what question are you answering?
2. Does the bible say that Jesus "had a relationship" with another divine person named the Holy Spirit before his birth? Where?

I appreciate that you are correctly reciting Trinity doctrine as it is taught, but what I am looking for us a from the ground up laid out proof from actual scripture and nothing but scripture. If you were to start with a blank slate, a working knowledge of English and a King James Bible, what would you actually get starting at Genesis and reading until the end of Revelation?

I see Father, Son, Holy Spirit all throughout Scripture and that for me is the Trinity / Tri-unity of God.

And, no, the word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible, however, the principle is.

 

[lifeisgood]

The blood on the doorposts isn't the blood on calvary's cross....

It was a type and shadow of what the Cross of Calvary.

The way you are thinking marhig, I am assuming had you been in the OT times you would not have put the blood on the door posts of your house.

 

[marhig]

It was a type and shadow of what the Cross of Calvary.

The way you are thinking marhig, I am assuming had you been in the OT times you would not have put the blood on the door posts of your house.

No it isn't, it's Christ's blood covering our hearts, so that the destroyer won't enter in. It's nothing to do with Christ's natural blood. How can his natural blood cover you or me. It's his life within and him living through us that covers us, that that's what God wants to see, and it happens when we have faith and obey God and become a living sacrifice doing the will of God and not living to please ourselves

I believe in a do and obey God gospel, not a do nothing and live my own life and go to heaven regardless of what I do wrong gospel, as seems to be what OSAS teaches! That's not what is taught in the Bible.

That happened once before in the garden of Eden, God gave a commandment and told Adam what to do, and along came Satan, "don't worry if you disobey God, you won't surely die", but, Adam did die spiritually and was cast out.

A bit like OSAS "don't worry, you can still sin, God won't see it all is forgiven"

That's a false teaching, once we know God, we are held accountable for what we do before God. We are forgiven of our past sins at repentance not future sins too.

Romans 3

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Any gospel that preaches that you are saved even if you carry on wilfully sinning is a false gospel.

Once we repent, we are to turn from sin and go sin no more. If we carry on living in our fleshly lusts, then we haven't got the spirit. Because with the spirit, our conscience should be so strong, that we find it near impossible to wilfully sin!

And if we have the spirit of God within, then turn away and start living to please our fleshly lusts, then we won't have the spirit for long.

We're going nowhere. You only talk of the cross, there's nothing at all about the life of Jesus. Just death.

 

[Rosenritter]

I see Father, Son, Holy Spirit all throughout Scripture and that for me is the Trinity / Tri-unity of God.

And, no, the word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible, however, the principle is.

Where throughout scripture? I did an exhaustive search before. It wasn't there. The designation of Father didn't appear until the New Testament, except in Isaiah where it says that it is a name of the Christ child.

What is this principle you speak of? Your statement sounds like you are reciting it.

 

[TulipBee]

We're all sinners! Many of those so called "sinners" or "unsaved" as some call others, have better hearts than many of those who attend church and think they're saved and going to heaven regardless of what they do!

We don't know the mind of God, and were not here to judge others, but to bring to others Gods word and then live it out ourselves! The word of God will judge and those who truly belong to God, those who obey him in their lives, will not only judge by the word, but also by the life that they have lived out in front others.

Also, what do you mean by "sinning since birth?"

You blame adam for eating the apple as soon as you're born. Before you blame him, you have to feel it. It feels awful to the sinner but you probably don't feel it probably due to your pridefullness and boasting of the free will power to tell God when you're ready to accept or if not at all.

 

[Rosenritter]

That is not true. That is a hindrance to those who want to be saved. That false doctrine is not the truth and it is a serious matter. People such as yourself and those who came before you who preach that lie have hindered me from the truth and from knowing God sooner, and has stopped many from being saved ever, at least not in this life.

The thief on the cross did not just believe he obeyed.

The thief on the cross humbled himself, feared God, admitted he was a sinner, showed sorrow for his sin, acknowledged God before others, and called on Jesus when he asked him to remember him.

GTruth, I do not agree with everything preached by Luther. Yet at the same time it does seem that he was working for God, on a schedule and a purpose that was laid out for him ahead of time. Is it possible that he was not correct in everything? Yes, but that's why we don't' consider his writings scripture. It is possible that if we examined your beliefs we might find something that might be questionable as well. Or myself or anyone else for that matter, I'm not just targeting you.

Given that we are not perfect, and that we cannot be saved by our works alone, faith covers the difference. With that faith Christ extends his forgiveness. "His blood" is the metaphor for this forgiveness, the sacrifice that exceeds all other sacrifices.

You said that the thief on the cross merely obeyed. Where did he receive a command? Jesus didn't solicit a confession from him, he responded in reaction to someone else that detracted him. If that thief didn't have faith that Jesus was who he said he was, that he had the power to remember him when he "Came into his Kingdom" then how could he have taken action to begin with?

The scripture emphasizes the importance both of faith, and the works (the evidence, the fruits) that true faith produces. Please don't attack either.

 

[marhig]

You blame adam for eating the apple as soon as you're born. Before you blame him, you have to feel it. It feels awful to the sinner but you probably don't feel it probably due to your pridefullness and boasting of the free will power to tell God when you're ready to accept or if not at all.

I don't know what your on about, we have an appointed time to know God and die, then judgement begins. Babies aren't sinners! Being in sinful flesh and being a sinner are two different things entirely, Jesus was in sinful flesh but never sinned. A baby is innocent!

We all have freewill and we all have a choice, we can believe the truth that Jesus came as a witness to, and have faith and obey God and live Or, not believe and remain dead in our sins, tossed to and fro by Satan.

As Joshua said, choose you this day who you serve. I've chosen to serve the living God and follow Jesus Christ

I'm not worried what others think of me, only what God thinks and it's him I obey

 

[Rosenritter]

No it isn't, it's Christ's blood covering our hearts, so that the destroyer won't enter in. It's nothing to do with Christ's natural blood. How can his natural blood cover you or me. It's his life within and him living through us that covers us, that that's what God wants to see, and it happens when we have faith and obey God and become a living sacrifice doing the will of God and not living to please ourselves

I believe in a do and obey God gospel, not a do nothing and live my own life and go to heaven regardless of what I do wrong gospel, as seems to be what OSAS teaches! That's not what is taught in the Bible.

That happened once before in the garden of Eden, God gave a commandment and told Adam what to do, and along came Satan, "don't worry if you disobey God, you won't surely die", but, Adam did die spiritually and was cast out.

A bit like OSAS "don't worry, you can still sin, God won't see it all is forgiven"

That's a false teaching, once we know God, we are held accountable for what we do before God. We are forgiven of our past sins at repentance not future sins too.

Romans 3

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Any gospel that preaches that you are saved even if you carry on wilfully sinning is a false gospel.

Once we repent, we are to turn from sin and go sin no more. If we carry on living in our fleshly lusts, then we haven't got the spirit. Because with the spirit, our conscience should be so strong, that we find it near impossible to wilfully sin!

And if we have the spirit of God within, then turn away and start living to please our fleshly lusts, then we won't have the spirit for long.

We're going nowhere. You only talk of the cross, there's nothing at all about the life of Jesus. Just death.

1. Did anyone say that it is Christ's literal blood that saves us? Or rather the actions that shed his literal blood, which rather shows his willing and intent to save us? The blood is a metaphor.

2. Likewise, the cross is a metaphor, the same metaphor as the blood. Christ's entire life is summed up by the cross and his blood. If that says nothing about his life, then why did John the Baptist see him and call him the "Lamb of God?" Why is he the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?" The purpose of the Lamb is as a sacrifice.

3. As a side note, does the Bible say that Adam "died spiritually?" That's missing from where I read. I just see where it says he died in Genesis 5.

 

[marhig]

1. Did anyone say that it is Christ's literal blood that saves us? Or rather the actions that shed his literal blood, which rather shows his willing and intent to save us? The blood is a metaphor.

2. Likewise, the cross is a metaphor, the same metaphor as the blood. Christ's entire life is summed up by the cross and his blood. If that says nothing about his life, then why did John the Baptist see him and call him the "Lamb of God?" Why is he the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?" The purpose of the Lamb is as a sacrifice.

3. As a side note, does the Bible say that Adam "died spiritually?" That's missing from where I read. I just see where it says he died in Genesis 5.

Jesus was dead before he went on the cross, he was a living sacrifice he never lived to please his flesh and he never sinned. He was dead to the world, and he overcame the world and Satan.


What do you think happened to Adam? you can see that he didn't die naturally. He was cast out of the garden and couldn't eat off the tree of life. If we keep wilfully sinning and disobeying God, do you think that he will still bless us with the holy spirit in our hearts?

 

[TulipBee]

I don't know what your on about, we have an appointed time to know God and die, then judgement begins. Babies aren't sinners! Being in sinful flesh and being a sinner are two different things entirely, Jesus was in sinful flesh but never sinned. A baby is innocent!

We all have freewill and we all have a choice, we can believe the truth that Jesus came as a witness to, and have faith and obey God and live Or, not believe and remain dead in our sins, tossed to and fro by Satan.

As Joshua said, choose you this day who you serve. I've chosen to serve the living God and follow Jesus Christ

I'm not worried what others think of me, only what God thinks and it's him I obey

You're funny. At what point did you sin?

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus was dead before he went on the cross, he was a living sacrifice he never lived to please his flesh and he never sinned. He was dead to the world, and he overcame the world and Satan.


What do you think happened to Adam? you can see that he didn't die naturally. He was cast out of the garden and couldn't eat off the tree of life. If we keep wilfully sinning and disobeying God, do you think that he will still bless us with the holy spirit in our hearts?

What happened to Adam? It says that he lived nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. But if he had been not cast out of the garden he could have taken of the tree of life and lived for ever. It does not say he spiritually died nor invoke such a metaphor.

Please don't confuse me with the willful sin proponents, if there are any. I think Paul called that crucifying the Son of God afresh.

 

[lifeisgood]

Where throughout scripture? I did an exhaustive search before. It wasn't there. The designation of Father didn't appear until the New Testament, except in Isaiah where it says that it is a name of the Christ child.

What is this principle you speak of? Your statement sounds like you are reciting it.

When a person does not want to see the principle of Father, Son, Holy Spirit in the OT, that is the person's fault not God's. You are hearing whatever you want to hear. Have no idea that you hear that I am reciting.

Trinity in the OT -- http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html

Psalm 110 -- http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/psalm110_1.htm

Have you ever heard about the Angel of Yahweh the Second Person of the Godhead:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_angel_of_yahweh.htm


I do not have the power to convince anyone just like others have no power to convince me. Only the Holy Spirit can make anyone see Father, Son, Holy Spirit throughout the Bible. All I can do is point to what I see in the word.

 

[Rosenritter]

When a person does not want to see the principle of Father, Son, Holy Spirit in the OT, that is the person's fault not God's. You are hearing whatever you want to hear. Have no idea that you hear that I am reciting.

Trinity in the OT -- http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html

Psalm 110 -- http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/psalm110_1.htm

Have you ever heard about the Angel of Yahweh the Second Person of the Godhead:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_angel_of_yahweh.htm


I do not have the power to convince anyone just like others have no power to convince me. Only the Holy Spirit can make anyone see Father, Son, Holy Spirit throughout the Bible. All I can do is point to what I see in the word.

Don't chuck links at me, if you say it is so easy and pervasive then show me. I seriously tried to construct Trinity from scripture once, tried to start from zero, tossed out assumptions that Jesus was God, and came out on the other side that Jesus was the only God. No Trinity emerged.

I thought I proved Trinity for a moment, but I misunderstood what Trinity meant. Why did I not know? Because I wasn't reading a man made creed. I was only using the Bible which lacks such definition or clear teaching.

 

[lifeisgood]

No it isn't

I am sorry marhig but you have made up your mind that had you been in the OT you would NOT have placed the blood in the door posts of your house and entered into it and be protected; therefore, you would have died as all who chose not to be under the blood. They rejected Jesus Christ's blood (in type and shadow) and died lost.

Same principle today. You either have the blood placed on the door posts of your heart and enter into God's rest or you are presenting the work of your own hands which have already been rejected because God only see the BLOOD of His Son shed on the Cross of Calvary; therefore, God saying "WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD... I will pass over you.'

God must see the BLOOD on the door posts of your heart; otherwise, He will NOT pass over you. That choice He has placed on your lap and there's not a person in the world can convince you that you need the BLOOD on the door posts of your heart.

 

[TulipBee]

Delete

 

[God's Truth]

First, what was false, and two, what should one believe instead? You are being awfully vague.

As for Jan Huss, maybe it might be worth the time to read Foxes Book of Martyrs. Before Jan Huss was burnt he gave a prophecy that in 100 years a swan would arise that they would neither boil or cook. Luther was 100 years later, his family crest the swan. Was that prophecy of God?

Prophecies ceased after the laying of the foundation. As for your favorite martyr, I do not go by the teachings of mere men. I go by the Holy Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

Saved from our past sins, not future sins. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that all your future sins are saved! Once we know God, we are to turn from sin.

Talk about teaching mixed messages, you need to look at yourself!

I have to overcome every day, I'm tempted every day! And without the spirit God, I'd fall straight away.

Oh yes he does put to death daily, if he didn't, I'd be sinning daily. God's spirit is helping me put sin to death in my heart every day of my life.

You do not even understand the simple things of salvation.

You misunderstand about Paul dying everyday because HIS LIFE WAS IN DANGER.

You also teach about death and do not seem to understand about the life of the Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

GTruth, I do not agree with everything preached by Luther. Yet at the same time it does seem that he was working for God, on a schedule and a purpose that was laid out for him ahead of time. Is it possible that he was not correct in everything? Yes, but that's why we don't' consider his writings scripture. It is possible that if we examined your beliefs we might find something that might be questionable as well. Or myself or anyone else for that matter, I'm not just targeting you.

Given that we are not perfect, and that we cannot be saved by our works alone, faith covers the difference. With that faith Christ extends his forgiveness. "His blood" is the metaphor for this forgiveness, the sacrifice that exceeds all other sacrifices.

You said that the thief on the cross merely obeyed. Where did he receive a command? Jesus didn't solicit a confession from him, he responded in reaction to someone else that detracted him. If that thief didn't have faith that Jesus was who he said he was, that he had the power to remember him when he "Came into his Kingdom" then how could he have taken action to begin with?

The scripture emphasizes the importance both of faith, and the works (the evidence, the fruits) that true faith produces. Please don't attack either.

You are the one attacking. Why do you keep acting like I do not preach faith? That is ignorant.

As for faith, it is also something that we must do, it is obedience to have faith.

As for Luther, why don't you want his false teachings rebuked?

Let's talk about the scriptures and not about what you think of me.

 

[marhig]

I am sorry marhig but you have made up your mind that had you been in the OT you would NOT have placed the blood in the door posts of your house and entered into it and be protected; therefore, you would have died as all who chose not to be under the blood. They rejected Jesus Christ's blood (in type and shadow) and died lost.

Same principle today. You either have the blood placed on the door posts of your heart and enter into God's rest or you are presenting the work of your own hands which have already been rejected because God only see the BLOOD of His Son shed on the Cross of Calvary; therefore, God saying "WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD... I will pass over you.'

God must see the BLOOD on the door posts of your heart; otherwise, He will NOT pass over you. That choice He has placed on your lap and there's not a person in the world can convince you that you need the BLOOD on the door posts of your heart.

We just see that so differently, there's no point in going on!

 

[marhig]

What happened to Adam? It says that he lived nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. But if he had been not cast out of the garden he could have taken of the tree of life and lived for ever. It does not say he spiritually died nor invoke such a metaphor.

Please don't confuse me with the willful sin proponents, if there are any. I think Paul called that crucifying the Son of God afresh.

Yes of he had of obeyed, and hadn't have been cast out of the garden he could have eaten of the tree of life, but he disobeyed and was cast out.

So do you think that God will give if the holy spirit if we continue to disobey him and live to please our flesh?

And wilful sinning is definitely crucifying the lord afresh. Showing us it was a sinful act the first time!