The Trinity

[NWL]

No way does it make us God; however, you said Jesus is God and is representing God because God the Father’s Spirit is inside of Jesus, correct?
Make up your mind.
Remember, you said Jesus is God.
There is only one God, and He is the Father.
Since Jesus is God, then he must also be the Father.

The reason why you don't get a lot of Jehovahs witnesses saying that Jesus is God is because it confuses people a lot. In my last post to you I've shown how theos/god doesn't only refer to one being. There are many gods but only One God in the almighty sense, this biblical as shown in 1 Cor 8:5,6.

I'll say my position so we're clear on it. There is only one Almight true God, this is stated by Jesus in John 17:3 and also in 1 Cor 8:6. There are many Gods, be it men, angels, satan or Jesus, (2 Cor 4:4, John 10:34, Psalms 82:1, Psalms 82:6) but again, only one God in the almighty sense.

There are prophecies fulfilled in those scriptures, and too much to get into at this time; however, remember that we are talking about what is spiritual, and at no time is a mere man or angel worshipped without rebuke. Jesus was worshipped without rebuke.

Adam sinned and led mankind to death, (romans 5:12,) Jesus reconciled us and so through Jesus all men can gain eternal life. Because we are reconciled by Jesus we need to worship through him to allow this reconciliation to come into effect, thus we worship the Father by worshipping through Jesus Christ.

All you keep doing is ignoring the scripture I'm presenting to you and claiming the same thing over and over again. The issues your trying to bring to my attention aren't issues, this whole thing of Jesus being worshipped fails since Phil 2:9-11 is clear any worship given to Jesus is to the glory of the Father.

 

[God's Truth]

He said "Jesus is a God".

You need to learn to read more carefully.

You need to learn to read better. He said Jesus IS GOD.

He said 'God' with a capital 'G'.

He also said Jesus came from heaven.

You need to learn how to act like a Christian lady.

 

[glorydaz]

You are saying a lot of stuff and are all over the place.

Yep

Jesus is God the Father with a body.
Jesus is Spirit, and He is the Spirit of God.
Jesus had a body created by God the Father, before coming to earth, and after coming to earth.

Not a single true statement among those, God's UNtruth. :nono:

 

[God's Truth]

Yep




Not a single true statement among those, God's UNtruth. :nono:

It is all scripture which you deny.

Do you really think that I would speak of God's Truth and then promote the Catholic's trinity doctrine, as you do?

 

[glorydaz]

He said 'God' with a capital 'G'.

He also said Jesus came from heaven.

You need to learn how to act like a Christian lady.

You do enough acting for the lot of us, oh foolish woman.


He said Jesus was A God.
Then he said Jesus was an archangel.
If you can't see the error in that, you're worse than I thought.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You have done this before.
You refuse to discuss.
I am going to read and reply to NWL's posts to me.

I'm not the one refusing to discuss my entire post. I'm willing to discuss, but you're too lazy.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus is God the Father with a body.
Jesus is Spirit, and He is the Spirit of God.
Jesus had a body created by God the Father, before coming to earth, and after coming to earth.

It is all scripture which you deny.

Not one single statement there can be proven with Scripture. You're getting worse by the day.:doh:

 

[glorydaz]

I'll say my position so we're clear on it. There is only one Almight true God, this is stated by Jesus in John 17:3 and also in 1 Cor 8:6. There are many Gods, be it men, angels, satan or Jesus, (2 Cor 4:4, John 10:34, Psalms 82:1, Psalms 82:6) but again, only one God in the almighty sense.

Jesus is God in the Almighty sense.


He is also the Saviour, the Redeemer, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the Creator of all things, the First and the Last.

You are only proving to all that you reject your Creator. You'd best see before it's too late.

 

[NWL]

You're misinterpreting a lot of the things I'm saying. Sometimes I'm speaking in ways from your point of view for argument sake, please do not think everything I've said should be taken literally. I'll try clear up a few points.

In the known sentient world there is Almighty God, Spirit persons, Humans and animals. Four different category of living beings. The bodily composition of persons who live in Heaven are spiritual, they have spiritual non physical bodies. Things that live on the earth have physical bodies, bodies of flesh, namely, humans and animals.

We know that Jesus, prior to coming to earth, lived in heaven, he then "became flesh" and came to earth (Phil 2:6-8, John 1:14), Jesus becoming flesh implies he wasn't flesh prior to becoming flesh. If Jesus wasn't flesh and lived in heaven then its safe to say he had a spirit body prior to obtaining his physical one.

I've never said Jesus is the Father, nor did I say the Father had a (phyiscal?)body.

I believe Jesus is a Spirit person but I do not believe he is the holy spirit or spirit of God.

Jesus had a body created by God the Father, before coming to earth, and after coming to earth.

You misunderstood what I was trying to do, I stated there are three possibilities/scenarios, that wasn't me saying I believe in all these three things, simply me saying one of these is correct with the other two being wrong.

No, what I mean is, you say Jesus is not God the Father because He prayed to God the Father. That is circular. If you will not accept that reasoning, then neither can you use it.

No, I said Jesus is not the Father for a number of reasons, one of the reasons was that he prayed to himself. It is not circular reasoning to believe that if some prayed to another person, that the person whom they were praying to was not themselves. To quote, circular reasoning is when you attempt to make an argument by beginning with an assumption that what you are trying to prove is already true. I have made no assumption since I'm citing scripture.

You're trying to say that the reason why Jesus prayed to the Father was to teach the apostles and that there wasn't anyone else for Jesus to say to pray to. What you're forgetting is that Jesus prayed in private to the Father, WHY would Jesus pray to the Father in private??? Why would Jesus pray to the person who was himself, he certainly wasn't teaching anyone. Your logic and reasoning simply doesn't add up.

Have you forgotten that you said Jesus is God?

In a difference sense to what you understand, to you God only means one thing, you're not understanding the original words the way they are meant to.

 

[NWL]

Jesus is God in the Almighty sense.


He is also the Saviour, the Redeemer, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the Creator of all things, the First and the Last.

You are only proving to all that you reject your Creator. You'd best see before it's too late.

If this is the case then why does he call the Father the only true God in John 17:3?

(John 17:1,3) "..Father... This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.."

Did Jesus mean only when he said only?

The creator is Jehovah the Father, this is clearly shown in scripture, Jehovah the Father created the world through Jesus, this the Father is ultimate source of creation, not Jesus. This is undeniable. The Father, the source of creation is the one whom I give complete worship to.

(1 Cor 8:6) "..But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.."

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..God... Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

 

[glorydaz]

If this is the case then why does he call the Father the only true God in John 17:3?

(John 17:1,3) "..Father... This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.."

Did Jesus mean only when he said only?

Unlike you, He knows the Only True God is truine. He is included in the Godhead.

All those other gods you mentioned are not gods at all. There is only one God...the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

Now that His work on earth was done, Jesus would return to the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

 

[NWL]

You need to learn to read better. He said Jesus IS GOD.

He said 'God' with a capital 'G'.

He also said Jesus came from heaven.

You need to learn how to act like a Christian lady.

It is irreverent if I used God with a a capital G or not. In 2 Cor 4:4 the Greek term for God, capital G (ho thoes) is used, just like it is for Jesus in other places. The uncapitalised G is used so readers can better disguise that its not referring to the God, Jehovah, at the end of the day though it shouldn't matter, capital G or not, its all the same thing.

 

[NWL]

Too scared to answer the question? What's your excuse going to be for not answering it?

All those other gods you mentioned are not gods at all. There is only one God...the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form.

Ha! Then you're denying scripture. They are gods, you may hate the idea but to understand the bible correctly you have to accept the bible for what it is and not what you want it to mean.

Psalms 82:1 states God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges. Please answer me, does God judge in the middle of the gods?

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

This scripture denies the trinity! The fullness of God, what can the fullness of God be other than the trinity!? It simply can't be anything else, if the fullness of the Godhead, the Father, son and Holy spirit dwells in Jesus then you have to accept that Jesus is the trinity, which contradicts the trinity. At best you have modalism, laughable!

Godhead=Father, Son, HS, if therefore the Godhead resides in Jesus the Godhead=Jesus which equals Modalism at best.

The fact that Col 2:10, the very next verse states that followers of Christ have acquired the same fullness, it should be obvious the fullness has nothing to do with the trinity but everything to do with quality, anything else any you're also claiming man acquired the fullness of the Godhead the trinity, which contradicts the trinity yet again.

Now that His work on earth was done, Jesus would return to the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

You going to answer the questions that you ignored?

Why does Jesus call the Father the only true God in John 17:3? Did Jesus mean only when he said only?

(John 17:1,3) "..Father... This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.."

 

[God's Truth]

We do not believe Jesus was an angel. We believe he was an archangel/archaggelos, which means chief of the Angels or ruler of angels.

An archangel is an angel.

Angels is just another term for spirits. In essence anything that resides, or resided, in the heavens is a spirit, Angels, demons, Satan, God and Jesus(See Hebrews 1:14, John 4:24, John 1:14).

You ask "so how does an angel become God?". You clearly do not know that God as it is in English does not mean the same thing as it did to a Hebrew and Greek speaker back in the first century. To a English speaker God means God, an ultimate divine being who deserves worship. However to a ancient Greek and Hebrew speaker God hide a far broader meaning, calling someone a God was NOT limited to the almighty God. This is a bibilcal fact and must not be ignored if you intent to understand scripture correctly. God/thoes could be applied to someone who was mighty, divinely powered or a powerful being.

You shouldn’t say I don’t understand something without knowing for sure.

(2 Corinthians 4:4) "..among whom the God of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.."

(John 10:34) "..Jesus answered them [the Jewish teachers]: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?.."

(Psalm 8:5) "..You made him a little lower than gods ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor.."

(Psalm 82:1) "..God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges.."

(1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) "..For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father.."

There are various terms in the bible for God, El, theos, theon, ho theos... All these titles in scripture have been applied to both the father and other persons. However, as 1 Cor 8:5,6 shows, there are many false gods, general gods, but only one ture God in the ultimate almighty sense.

Therfore when I say Jesus is God, I do not mean it in the ulmighty sense but rather in a secondary sense much like the scriptures I showed you, such as Psalms 8:5, Psalms 82:1.

I know those scriptures. However, you said Jesus is God. You were misleading.

This has to do with the meaning of God as found in the Bibles entirety.

According to the Bible they can! Let me just say, a man cannot become almighty God no, but they can be called Gods, Jesus himself called the Jewish leaders who were divinely appointed gods, John 10:34. God himself said to Moses that he would make him a God to Pharaoh (John 10:34) . Thus when I call Jesus God or a God i'm not referring to him to the One God as mentioned in 1 Cor 8:6, who is the Father.

No man can become God.

Jesus cannot be a reflection of himself. If Jesus is a reflection of the Father then he cannot be the Father. Hebrews 1:3 states that Jesus is a reproduction of Gods being (according to the word charaktér). Thus if you were see Jesus and witness how he acted and dealt with things it was as if you saw the Father himself hence Jesus said to see him is to see the Father. Jesus and his father are separate persons.

Jesus in the flesh is an image of God the Father in heaven.

Find the verse which state such things, when you do so you'll see that the context surrounding those verses is always about false gods of surrounding nations with God challenging those gods regards his sovereignty, thus the understanding regarding such expressions can only be stretched as far as that context allows. Moreover, there is no God like Jehovah. Even Jesus as Gods very image, he is completely subordinate to him, hence the reason why Jesus hands all things over to God in the future whilst in Heaven.

Believe what is plainly written.


Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

That's the thing, countless of times I've had people come up to me and say "I saw you on so on so day" or "I saw you last week driving you van", when people say this they actually didn't see me but my brother. But because we are mirrors of each other people DO say they saw me even though they haven't. The same goes for Jesus, Jesus is the fathers image, the exact representation of him, therefore Jesus can say to see me is to see the Father without it having to mean he is the Father.

No. You proved with your own experience how it is not the same as Jesus saying when you see him you see the Father. You proved it really means when we see Jesus we see the Father.

You interpret it differently I get that, but that doesn't mean it can't be understood in the sense I'm claiming, since it can.

Responsibility doesn't come into play and is not relevant to the discussion. Also, it makes absolutely no sense why Jesus didn't simply come claiming to be the Father, why make things difficult and claim he's the son, when for thousands of years he's been saying he's the Father. Why not just state outspokenly, I'm the Father. Just like the trinitarians you don't take scripture simply for what it says.

Jesus is God the Father come as a Son.
Humans understand that when one comes from another it is as a son or a daughter.
Jesus was speaking to us in terms that we can understand.
Why would Jesus say he is God the Father, when all know that God the Father is invisible and lives in unapproachable light?

 

[God's Truth]

It is irreverent if I used God with a a capital G or not. In 2 Cor 4:4 the Greek term for God, capital G (ho thoes) is used, just like it is for Jesus in other places. The uncapitalised G is used so readers can better disguise that its not referring to the God, Jehovah, at the end of the day though it shouldn't matter, capital G or not, its all the same thing.

Jesus is God the Father who came in the flesh as a Son of Man.

As for glorydaze and my argument, I am right and she is wrong, because you did say Jesus is God.

 

[God's Truth]

Not one single statement there can be proven with Scripture. You're getting worse by the day.:doh:

I have given you the scriptures before but you deny the scriptures. Your silly little insults mean nothing more than letting us all know that you do not speak the truth and that you like to insult.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus is God the Father who came in the flesh as a Son of Man.

As for glorydaze and my argument, I am right and she is wrong, because you did say Jesus is God.

Jesus is not God the Father who is come in the flesh by His own admission;

John 17:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[glorydaz]

The creator is Jehovah the Father, this is clearly shown in scripture, Jehovah the Father created the world through Jesus, this the Father is ultimate source of creation, not Jesus. This is undeniable. The Father, the source of creation is the one whom I give complete worship to.

Speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

Notice how all things were created by Him and for Him. Compare it to the verse you quoted below.

(1 Cor 8:6) "..But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.."

Paul is teaching the Shema here. One God, One Lord. The Lord our God is one Lord.

You may not know what Paul was saying, but the Jews did.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

 

[glorydaz]

I have given you the scriptures before but you deny the scriptures. Your silly little insults mean nothing more than letting us all know that you do not speak the truth and that you like to insult.

LIAR. You have never given scripture, because there are none that say what you claim.

 

[God's Truth]

I'm not the one refusing to discuss my entire post. I'm willing to discuss, but you're too lazy.

You are what you accuse me of, and a hypocrite. There are many times you take a part of my post and want to talk about only that.