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  • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Figure out who Jesus is first. Then let's talk about the Trinity.
    I think that is what this whole thread is about....who is Jesus in relation to the Father? That will define "God," and address the validity of the doctrine of the trinity---three Gods in a "Godhead"---polytheism.

    Jesus is the SON of God, as he said himself many times, and as his disciples said. He never said, "I am God," and neither did his disciples say that he was God.

    Jesus refuted what the Pharisees said about him that "you make yourself out to be God." He corrected them! He said, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? [Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?" (John 10:34-36, NASB)

    "For I did not speak of my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." (John 12:49) He is saying here that he speaks about only what the Father tells him to speak. He says he can't do it of his own initiative. He is attributing the entire God-ship to his Father.

    Peter said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16) Peter knew Jesus to be the Son OF God, not God.

    John wrote: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31)

    There are no scriptures that tell us in a crystal clear way that either Jesus thought he was God or his disciples thought so. John 8:58 is a sham of a verse---a sloppy translation and a grammatical mess, so don't bring that up again. Thomas uttering, "My Lord & my God" does not show unequivocably that he was referring to Jesus, so that is not acceptable. There must be CLEAR, STRAIGHTFORWARD verses, and there are dozens that say that Jesus is the SON of God, and he is subordinate to the Father.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
      I think that is what this whole thread is about....who is Jesus in relation to the Father? That will define "God," and address the validity of the doctrine of the trinity---three Gods in a "Godhead"---polytheism.

      Jesus is the SON of God, as he said himself many times, and as his disciples said. He never said, "I am God," and neither did his disciples say that he was God.

      Jesus refuted what the Pharisees said about him that "you make yourself out to be God." He corrected them! He said, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? [Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?" (John 10:34-36, NASB)

      "For I did not speak of my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." (John 12:49) He is saying here that he speaks about only what the Father tells him to speak. He says he can't do it of his own initiative. He is attributing the entire God-ship to his Father.

      Peter said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16) Peter knew Jesus to be the Son OF God, not God.

      John wrote: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31)

      There are no scriptures that tell us in a crystal clear way that either Jesus thought he was God or his disciples thought so. John 8:58 is a sham of a verse---a sloppy translation and a grammatical mess, so don't bring that up again. Thomas uttering, "My Lord & my God" does not show unequivocably that he was referring to Jesus, so that is not acceptable. There must be CLEAR, STRAIGHTFORWARD verses, and there are dozens that say that Jesus is the SON of God, and he is subordinate to the Father.
      You believe that Jesus is god and that the Holy Spirit is a force. What's up with that when both are God. You would know that if you have paid attention with very many threads on this site. Take a peek at post 97.
      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

      Jim Elliot

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
        References please.
        I have given you a couple, and there are quite a few more that are lamely used to try and prop up the weak trinity doctrine. You know them yourself, I'm sure. I mentioned John 8:58 and John 20:28. Trinitarians try to say that the following show that Jesus is God, but every one can be refuted (as I have done on other threads):

        Philippians 2:6
        John 1:1
        John 10:30
        I Timothy 3:16
        Titus 1:3; 2:13
        Hebrews 1:8
        Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13

        Therein lie the possible 300 or so words that are desperately used to defend the trinity, out of the 807,000 of the New American Standard Bible, 807,000 that attest to a unitarianGod. 300 to 807,000 is pitiful. And when monotheists get done with those 300 or so words, even that many will be greatly reduced!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
          You"re a cultist aren't you.
          So you say the church of Acts ch 2 is a cult.

          Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
          Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
          Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
          Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
          Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
          Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
          Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
          Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
          Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
          Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
          Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
          Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
          My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
            I'm not. You have claimed that 1 John 1:1-2 are. You do not believe in the eternality of Jesus.
            You ARE denying I Corinthians 11:3!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              You do not take the simplicity of what they mean. Jesus is without beginning and without end. He is eternal.
              So say YOU. The Bible indicates that only Jehovah is eternal.

              The early church fathers believed that Jehovah, the Father, was the only unbegotten being, and that Jesus was the begotten Son. That means they thought of Jesus as having a beginning. He was the very first being that the Father created. His "only-begotten Son." (John 3:16)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
                What is it you like about the Arian heresy? Is it the way cults make people feel special, the egoism the likes of Jehovah's Witnesses thrive on, believing you're God's special little creatures? But if you're only special, off there in your own corner, because of error, doesn't this more make you especially ignorant? This doesn't seem a good sort of special. I'd rather be one in the crowd, if it means truth and being in touch with reality. It's neither a very good sign, that you don't know who your God is, since the Holy Spirit doesn't drop links. Just a thought.
                You are an exeedingly unpleasant person, spiritually blind and yet broadcasting that you know it all. You don't bother to read my posts and you go on spreading lies about JWs, lies that I have addressed in those posts to you. You just don't want to hear anything other than what you have ingrained in your head! I know who my God is, and He is the God of the Bible, JEHOVAH, the Most High. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                  Philippians 2:5-6 shows the equality of Jesus with God.


                  Philippians 2:5-6 English Standard Version (ESV)

                  5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

                  6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
                  You just proved yourself WRONG. To "grasp" something is to take something you did not have before.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
                    So you say the church of Acts ch 2 is a cult.

                    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
                    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
                    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                    Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                    Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                    Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                    Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
                    Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
                    Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
                    Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
                    Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
                    Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
                    Are you a Jew?
                    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                    Jim Elliot

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                      You ARE denying I Corinthians 11:3!
                      No, he can be coequal and subordinate.
                      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                      Jim Elliot

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by journey View Post
                        The heretic squad is busy here and I knew they would be. They can't stand for the TRUTH to be shared without challenge. Deception is their game.
                        What would you have said back before 325 AD, when "Arianism" was the accepted view and your view that you have now was considered heresy? When you find out that YOU are deceiving people and God is really only the Father (like Jesus said!), I guess you're going to be shocked.

                        John 17:3

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                          You just proved yourself WRONG. To "grasp" something is to take something you did not have before.
                          Just proves that he didn't mind being coequal with the Father.
                          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                          Jim Elliot

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            You"re a cultist aren't you.
                            Jehovah's Witnesses are no more "cultists" than Jesus and his disciples were in the 1st century! But that is how the Jews and the pagan Romans felt about them.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                              What would you have said back before 325 AD, when "Arianism" was the accepted view and your view that you have now was considered heresy? When you find out that YOU are deceiving people and God is really only the Father (like Jesus said!), I guess you're going to be shocked.

                              John 17:3

                              And you will be shocked to find out that Jesus is God eh.
                              He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                              Jim Elliot

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                                You believe that Jesus is god and that the Holy Spirit is a force. What's up with that when both are God. You would know that if you have paid attention with very many threads on this site. Take a peek at post 97.
                                I believe that Jesus is an important, powerful being---that is what "god" means. Jehovah is the only ALMIGHTY God. Jesus himself said the Father was greater than he was, and that didn't end when he went back to heaven (as I Corinthians 11:3, and other verses, shows). The H.S. is definitely a force, and it comes FROM God. It is Jehovah's means by which He does anything.

                                I have been paying attention to the many threads on this site. Your idea about the Holy Spirit is incredibly skewed. It is not a person that thinks and speaks independently. The H.S. is what Jehovah Himself USES to speak or create or do anything He wants to do.

                                Comment

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