The Trinity

[jamie]

It's not an A != B, therefore B != A type of instance.

The son of a human would be a human son. The Son of Man would be a man and a son.

I don't know what you think the creation of humans was all about.

We are not pets, we are the children of God. Like Father like Son.

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

Yep, only God is immortal.

 

[Rosenritter]

The son of a human would be a human son. The Son of Man would be a man and a son.

I don't know what you think the creation of humans was all about.

We are not pets, we are the children of God. Like Father like Son.

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

Yep, only God is immortal.

Jesus called himself both Son of Man and Son of God. Everyone else called him the Son of God but not Son of Man. So your reasoning above may not perfectly fit.

 

[jamie]

Jesus called himself both Son of Man and Son of God. Everyone else called him the Son of God but not Son of Man. So your reasoning above may not perfectly fit.

The Greek word for man is anthropos which refers to humans, male and female.

Jesus had a human mother and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Son of Man, Son of God.

I'm guessing you had a human mother, but is God your Spirit Father? Are you a son of God?

Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God."

Are you a son of man and a son of God? Yes, no, maybe?

 

[Rosenritter]

The Greek word for man is anthropos which refers to humans, male and female.

Jesus had a human mother and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Son of Man, Son of God.

I'm guessing you had a human mother, but is God your Spirit Father? Are you a son of God?

Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God."

Are you a son of man and a son of God? Yes, no, maybe?

Not in the sense as Jesus, who created the worlds and was the only begotten Son of God. Let's not confuse words here. Back to topic please?

 

[jamie]

Not in the sense as Jesus, who created the worlds and was the only begotten Son of God. Let's not confuse words here. Back to topic please?

As a man was Jesus like us?

 

[achduke]

There's a distinction actually.

"The Son of God" is used as a title in the bible, and Paul elsewhere describes "like unto the Son of God" as being without father, without mother, without beginning or end of days. Taken literally that fits only one person, whom we know as God. Also, the one who called himself the Son of God revealed himself as none other than God in a multitude of ways that I lose track of how many.

I see a few issues with using "God the Son."
1) The phrase and title does not appear in the Bible but rather from Trinitarian doctrinal statements. For those suspicious of extra-biblical terminology this is an immediate red flag. It's a very slippery slope because once one non-biblical concept is allowed then others can follow unchecked.
2) The term itself implies multiple Gods, such as "God the Father" "God the Son" "God the Daughter" "God the Mother" "God the Grandpa" and so forth. I think the usage of that term does contribute to a three-God philosophy that has more in common with polytheism, or alternatively a three-ish God philosophy with Gnostic roots.
3) The "Son of God" only bears distinction when God is manifest in the flesh. He is not manifest in the flesh right now, not until his second coming. So it would be incorrect to speak of an "Eternal God the Son" when there was no "Son of God" before he manifested as the Son of God.

Perhaps a (probably flawed) example might help. If I am forty years old, and I am a father, it would be incorrect to say that I was a father of forty years. Perhaps "forty-year old father" might be correct. As such the person of Jesus can be the eternal God and from everlasting, and the Son of God, but to say he was the eternal Son of God from everlasting would be incorrect if "Son of God" is a distinction that applies to God manifest in the flesh.

It's not an A != B, therefore B != A type of instance. It's easy to prove that Jesus was the Son of God, and the Lord God Almighty, from scripture alone. You don't need a Trinity belief for that. Arguing that Jesus is God because Trinity says so presents a very weak (and flawed) argument.

Your above reasoning is more clear to me than a trinity. A trinity does not explain the 7 spirits of God. The term Son of God or Children of God can also be anyone filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. It gets more difficult defining who is the Holy Spirit, the WORD, the 7 Spirits and the Spirit of the LORD. Are they the same? Are they different? Some verses say the Holy Spirit does not teach on his own authority but instead on the authority of the Father.

Here are some passages of the 7 spirits that are not defined well in the trinity.

Revelation 1:4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Zechariah 3:8-10 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold [/Bthe stone that I have laid before Joshua]; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

 

[lifeisgood]

Nope, there's only one Mediator, the man Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean he's God, he had the spirit of God dwelling in fullness through him thus he brought God to us, making him Emmanuel. God with us. Because God was fully seen through Jesus because he denied his flesh completely and never sinned thus showing God fully through his life and he spoke every word that God gave him by the spirit. and we are saved by that life within, you don't seem to grasp that it actually says in the Bible that we are saved by the life of Jesus.

If we don't have Christ in our hearts, and God doesn't see the life of his son in us and through us then he won't see us. He'll just see our flesh. Christ in our hearts is having his blood on the doorposts, because if his life is within us, then the destroyer can't enter and he will pass over us.

You just say the same thing over and over and over, there's no life in your posts just death, and God is life and love! And the life of Christ saves his life is the blood!

The BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary is the only way to bring YOU God's life. That's what God say.

Only when God sees the BLOOD can you RECEIVE His LIFE.

Reject the blood and His life is also rejected. It matters not how vociferously we say otherwise.

You only see death because you REJECT the BLOOD. The BLOOD opened the way for us to be able to get into the presence of God. If we are found under the BLOOD, God does not see us, He sees His Son and His finished legal work on the Cross of Calvary.

Would you, marhig, have been one of the ones who crossed the Red Sea seeing that you reject the blood?

Without the BLOOD, there is NO redemption. That is what God's word say.
Without the BLOOD, there is NO crossing the Red sea. That is what God's word say.

God says that for Him to give you LIFE, He has to see the BLOOD of His precious Son.

God said, "When I see the BLOOD, I will pass over you (save you)."

Now, you can go with what God says or you can go against what He says.
That is where the crux of the matter falls.


BTW: You can click on the ignore button, if you do not want to communication about the BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary to save you.

 

[lifeisgood]

As a man was Jesus like us?

Can we perform the incredible miracles He performed?
Can we speak like Him?
Have we tons of books written about us like with Him, where He never wrote anything?
Can we die for the salvation of the world?
Can we resurrect ourselves?
I mean, the list in endless. As John said, if we could write every single thing Jesus did, there would not be enough books to write them on (paraphrasing here).

However, He got tired, He got thirsty, He wept, He needed sleep, He was hungry, He got angry,.....

 

[jamie]

Can we perform the incredible miracles He performed?

It is the Father who did the works.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know."

 

[Bright Raven]

It is the Father who did the works.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know."

John 14:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Answered Prayer
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

[marhig]

The BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary is the only way to bring YOU God's life. That's what God say.

Only when God sees the BLOOD can you RECEIVE His LIFE.

Reject the blood and His life is also rejected. It matters not how vociferously we say otherwise.

You only see death because you REJECT the BLOOD. The BLOOD opened the way for us to be able to get into the presence of God. If we are found under the BLOOD, God does not see us, He sees His Son and His finished legal work on the Cross of Calvary.

Would you, marhig, have been one of the ones who crossed the Red Sea seeing that you reject the blood?

Without the BLOOD, there is NO redemption. That is what God's word say.
Without the BLOOD, there is NO crossing the Red sea. That is what God's word say.

God says that for Him to give you LIFE, He has to see the BLOOD of His precious Son.

God said, "When I see the BLOOD, I will pass over you (save you)."

Now, you can go with what God says or you can go against what He says.
That is where the crux of the matter falls.


BTW: You can click on the ignore button, if you do not want to communication about the BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary to save you.

So you keep saying, but I have yet to see that Jesus' finished legal work on the cross, or that the blood shed on Calvary's cross saves me in the Bible. Or that death saves. Only life saves. God is life and he saves with life, love and by his grace, through faith. That's what it says in the Bible, that's what i believe.

I believe in the blood of Christ, just not as you do. But you just can't see what I mean. Without the life of Christ within us by the spirit, we're dead to God. Without the holy spirit, we're living in the flesh and by the flesh, and we're the walking dead we need the holy spirit within and Christ in our hearts and through our lives, to bring us to life and back to God.

Without the holy spirit, and life of Christ resurrected within our hearts, we're dead. We are saved by that life and death will pass over us as satan can't enter a house that is furnished, he only enters houses that are off guard and garnished only, looking good on the outside yet empty within.

I have no intention of putting you on ignore. You only say the same thing over and over anyway so I'm used to it.

According to you, I'm not saved unless I believe as you do. Even though it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that I'm saved by the legal finished work of Jesus on Calvary's cross. Nowhere, unless you'd like to show me? And I'm not talking about the blood, I believe in the blood. I'm talking about the Bible saying that I'm not saved unless I believe in Jesus' finished legal work of Jesus on Calvary's cross. Would you like to show me where it says that in the Bible please? I do keep asking you, but you don't show me? You just repeat yourself again.

 

[marhig]

Can we perform the incredible miracles He performed?
Can we speak like Him?
Have we tons of books written about us like with Him, where He never wrote anything?
Can we die for the salvation of the world?
Can we resurrect ourselves?
I mean, the list in endless. As John said, if we could write every single thing Jesus did, there would not be enough books to write them on (paraphrasing here).

However, He got tired, He got thirsty, He wept, He needed sleep, He was hungry, He got angry,.....

He also had the ability to sin but denied his own will and overcame satan and the world by doing God's will and through love. Jesus was tempted on all points as we are but he never sinned, there's the difference, we always sin. And he became like his brethren a man of flesh. He was exactly like us, if he didn't have the same feelings and temptations as us, then there would be no point in him saying he overcame. He had to be just like us to overcome Satan. How can he ask us to do something that he hasn't been through himself?

He's been through everything that we do, but he denied temptations, overcame them, and denied Satan being full of the holy spirit because he suffered. And we must suffer like Christ and deny ourselves to receive strength and power by the spirit. God won't live in a dirty house, it must be being cleaned daily, and Christ can't be seen through a dirty heart, because if were still living our own lives, all that others will see is our flesh and regardless of how much we speak and say we love God, if we haven't got the indwelling spirit and we're not living it out, being hearers of the word and not doers, then we're dead to God.

 

[marhig]

But if God had a God that God would be God. Who else would it be? Or would you suggest that God would be Godless?

But it doesn't say that God has a God in the Bible, yet it does say that Jesus has a God, Jesus even says so himself! And that God is his God and his father.

If Jesus was God, then his brethren would be his sons, but his brethren are just that, his brethren, making him a son and not God. Even after his resurrection he called them his brethren. Jesus isn't God, he's the son of God, as it says in the Bible.

There are plenty of places that say that Jesus is the son of God in the Bible, not once does it say God the son. And I'm wrong and should believe people who say this? No, I believe Jesus, and he says that he is the son of God and that God is his father and his God and I believe him.

 

[marhig]

Be careful of how you cast judgment. Perhaps you may not understand the nature of God perfectly because you believe in a Trinity. The biblical text does not naturally create a "Trinity" doctrine or else it wouldn't have had to be constructed and mandated several hundred years later. The Old Testament did not teach a Trinity and neither did Jesus or his apostles.

When you say the scripture "alludes" to a Trinity you are admitting that it's not clearly taught. Many things could be said to "allude" but that doesn't mean you have a perfect model, just that you have some areas that seem to agree with what you think. If you stick with what scripture flat-out says you're safe.

Things like:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, In the beginning was the Word, the Word was made flesh, God was manifest in the flesh, Jesus created all things and without him nothing was created that was created, and so on and so forth. If people accept what scripture literally says there's no need to force-sell a model that was created hundreds of years after the fact.

Now I'm confused, because you seem to believe in the trinity very much, how are your beliefs different to others? Thanks

 

[Rosenritter]

As a man was Jesus like us?

Not exactly exactly. He was without sin. He was heard by God always and as such prayer was sometimes for the observers.

John 11:41-42 KJV
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. [42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it , that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

He also remembered casting Satan down from heaven when the angels rebelled.

Luke 10:17-18 KJV
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. [18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And Jesus also had the right and authority to forgive sin.

Mark 2:5-7 KJV
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. [6] But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, [7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

And lets not forget authority and wisdom at a very young age. This example is at age twelve.

Luke 2:46-49 KJV
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. [47] And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. [48] And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. [49] And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

By the way, that example also runs against Keypurrs spirit son theory...

 

[Rosenritter]

Your above reasoning is more clear to me than a trinity. A trinity does not explain the 7 spirits of God. The term Son of God or Children of God can also be anyone filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. It gets more difficult defining who is the Holy Spirit, the WORD, the 7 Spirits and the Spirit of the LORD. Are they the same? Are they different? Some verses say the Holy Spirit does not teach on his own authority but instead on the authority of the Father.

Here are some passages of the 7 spirits that are not defined well in the trinity.

Revelation 1:4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Zechariah 3:8-10 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold [/Bthe stone that I have laid before Joshua]; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Seven is a symbolic number, signifying holy completion. As for seven spirits I would think those as seven designated angels. Nothing too mystical or secret there.

I would say that God IS the Holy Spirit. There are many spirits but only One whose name is Holy. God is a spirit. You would see God referred to as Holy Spirit when he works invisibly. The Word (Logos) is a term John borrowed that means the logical explanation of a thing, he uses it to explain that Jesus was our God before he became flesh. "The Father" is the term Jesus used to refer to God while walking among us, probably in the sense as most Jews expected as they thought.

Not too complicated really I think.

 

[Rosenritter]

So you keep saying, but I have yet to see that Jesus' finished legal work on the cross, or that the blood shed on Calvary's cross saves me in the Bible. Or that death saves. Only life saves. God is life and he saves with life, love and by his grace, through faith. That's what it says in the Bible, that's what i believe.

I believe in the blood of Christ, just not as you do. But you just can't see what I mean. Without the life of Christ within us by the spirit, we're dead to God. Without the holy spirit, we're living in the flesh and by the flesh, and we're the walking dead we need the holy spirit within and Christ in our hearts and through our lives, to bring us to life and back to God.

Without the holy spirit, and life of Christ resurrected within our hearts, we're dead. We are saved by that life and death will pass over us as satan can't enter a house that is furnished, he only enters houses that are off guard and garnished only, looking good on the outside yet empty within.

I have no intention of putting you on ignore. You only say the same thing over and over anyway so I'm used to it.

According to you, I'm not saved unless I believe as you do. Even though it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that I'm saved by the legal finished work of Jesus on Calvary's cross. Nowhere, unless you'd like to show me? And I'm not talking about the blood, I believe in the blood. I'm talking about the Bible saying that I'm not saved unless I believe in Jesus' finished legal work of Jesus on Calvary's cross. Would you like to show me where it says that in the Bible please? I do keep asking you, but you don't show me? You just repeat yourself again.

Would you bathe in the filthy river Jordan to be cured of leprosy?

If so, would you obey Jesus and accept his death as payment for your sins? Because that is what HE said he requires. Drink his blood and eat his flesh, he said.

John 6:54-61 KJV
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. [58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. [59] These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. [60] Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this , said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? [61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Does that work for showing by the Bible?

 

[Rosenritter]

But it doesn't say that God has a God in the Bible, yet it does say that Jesus has a God, Jesus even says so himself! And that God is his God and his father.

If Jesus was God, then his brethren would be his sons, but his brethren are just that, his brethren, making him a son and not God. Even after his resurrection he called them his brethren. Jesus isn't God, he's the son of God, as it says in the Bible.

There are plenty of places that say that Jesus is the son of God in the Bible, not once does it say God the son. And I'm wrong and should believe people who say this? No, I believe Jesus, and he says that he is the son of God and that God is his father and his God and I believe him.

It DOES say Jesus is God, in many different ways and places. Therefore, the God of God is God. He is his own God. Let go of your objection and deal with the hard facts that Jesus is called and identified as the Lord God dozens of times.

 

[Rosenritter]

Now I'm confused, because you seem to believe in the trinity very much, how are your beliefs different to others? Thanks

Lon thinks of me as Triune I think, Right Divider gets upset with me because I say Trinity isn't biblical. I am certainly not polytheist like James White. I don't claim Trinity, I go only as far as what scripture directly says and I am not dogmatic about what it doesn't say.

It does say there is One God and it does tell us that Jesus is that One God.

 

[marhig]

It DOES say Jesus is God, in many different ways and places. Therefore, the God of God is God. He is his own God. Let go of your objection and deal with the hard facts that Jesus is called and identified as the Lord God dozens of times.

And you need to realise that Jesus also calls God his God, and his brethren are his brethren not his sons. Even after the resurrection.

And even the apostles call God the God of Jesus. And Jesus said, without the father he could do nothing he also said why call me good when there was none good but God. He clearly shows right through the gospels that God is his God and father and that he is the son. God exalted Jesus, why would God exhalt Jesus if Jesus is already God. It would make no sense. It also says that God has set Jesus at his right hand, why? Why would God do that, if Jesus was God also? God wouldn't have to set him anywhere because Jesus would be God. And why is Christ under subjection to God if he is God. I can't just let go, because to me it's clear that Jesus isn't the almighty God. It's as clear as day, I can't see how others can't see it.

Jesus said, life eternal is this, that we should know THE ONE TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ WHOM HE HAS SENT.

And that's exactly how I see it and that's what I believe, i know the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.