yes, hes teaching annihilation and soul sleep in this thread.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
yes, hes teaching annihilation and soul sleep in this thread.
:idunno: Hell is a place. Death is a thing. Angels are beings.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't think so. Death annihilated in the Lake of Fire? Duh! It will be tormented along with all the other wicked.
Sorry, no such thing!
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, but Hell and Death are also spirits, which will be cast into the Lake of Fire, along with all other principalities, powers and rulers of the darkness of this world.
Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was "Death," and "Hell" followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Hell was riding right behind Death in his vision.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary said:
:e4e:
The spirit-soul lives on after death. Bodily resurrection of believers and unbelievers is a future event for both (but separated by 1000 years). You will have to argue against the resurrection of believers if you argue against the resurr. of unbelievers.
Adam died spiritually in the garden yet remained conscious. He died physically many centuries later.
Hell means grave in some contexts (JWs say it always means common grave of man). It also refers to the abode of the lost awaiting the final lake of fire. It has a range of meaning depending on context.
You are generally right on this topic and Tim is wrong and misled on an important doctrine. Stand firm. Our view will stand up to scrutiny as popular as his view is to modern ears that are itching and like to be tickled.
Anti-hell is popular because people elevate the love of God above His holiness. Mercy and justice are equally true. The spirit in the image of God lives forever, like it or not. This necessitates two destinies. God is not unjust, but hell flows from His love.
The same adjective modifies the noun. He is rationalizing away and twisting the plain grammar. If punishment is not eternal, then neither is life eternal.
He complains if we do not have a verse that explicitly uses the phrase ECT. Yet, he will say it does not mean eternal punishment (just like 10 years punishment), but that it means the effects of the annihilation are forever, but the person is not. When a plain passage in Revelation says something, he plays the symbol card, yet cannot explain what it means other than what it says.
When Lk. 16 shows conscious suffering after death, he makes it figurative (making Jesus a false teacher) or assumes the effects are for a time, then cease (sheer inference, eisegesis).
We gave you e.g. and principles that speak of death in relation to living persons (dead in sin; physically dead, yet conscious in hell; alive in the garden yet declared dead in one sense by God=separation, not cessation).
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up motto?
Much of Revelation is normatively literal. Anything that contradicts you causes you to default to figurative even when the context does not demand it. If it is figurative, what does it mean apart from what it says? If you wanted to say the opposite or what we are saying literally/face value, how else could you do it apart from the language of Scripture (you cannot, but I could change things to truly be figurative and not possible to take literally).
Change your view, not the Bible.
Absolutely.
I'm surprised that you would think I was unaware of the Isaiah passage.
In fact, I was just itching that someone would bring it up!
Now that it is brought up, let's take a closer look.
Isaiah 66 KJV
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Notice the same concept being presented in the descriptive language of Isaiah, ie. the continual burning of the wicked.
For verse 23 plainly says that the ones that come to worship will see them burning.
And they come from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another.
Are you starting to see it yet?
Take a closer look.
Every week (Sabbath to Sabbath) and every month (new moon to new moon) those wicked will be seen burning, with their worms, and will be abhorred.
That's continual.
That's the graphic image Isaiah is painting for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
Also take particular notice:
Their worm shall not die.
That's continual.
The fire will not be quenched.
That's continual.
That's the graphic image Isaiah is painting for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
And every week and every month that the worshipers come, the burning wicked, with their worms, will still be there for them to abhorred.
That's continual.
That's the graphic image Isaiah is painting for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
It is the same graphic image Jesus painted for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
It's not an image of annihilation, but of continuance.
If you think for one second that Isaiah or Jesus are describing something that can happen with natural bodies, or natural worms, in a natural world as we live in now, you are aren't looking close enough at what Isaiah or Jesus are saying.
In the natural world we live in now, a natural body would burn up, a worm would die, there would remain no more fire, and there wouldn't be any of the wicked left there for the worshipers to see and abhor week after week and month after month.
Absolutely.
I'm surprised that you would think I was unaware of the Isaiah passage.
In fact, I was just itching that someone would bring it up!
Now that it is brought up, let's take a closer look.
Isaiah 66 KJV
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Notice the same concept being presented in the descriptive language of Isaiah, ie. the continual burning of the wicked.
For verse 23 plainly says that the ones that come to worship will see them burning.
And they come from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another.
Are you starting to see it yet?
Take a closer look.
Every week (Sabbath to Sabbath) and every month (new moon to new moon) those wicked will be seen burning, with their worms, and will be abhorred.
That's continual.
That's the graphic image Isaiah is painting for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
Also take particular notice:
Their worm shall not die.
That's continual.
The fire will not be quenched.
That's continual.
That's the graphic image Isaiah is painting for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
And every week and every month that the worshipers come, the burning wicked, with their worms, will still be there for them to abhorred.
That's continual.
That's the graphic image Isaiah is painting for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
It is the same graphic image Jesus painted for the folks to conjure up in their mind.
It's not an image of annihilation, but of continuance.
If you think for one second that Isaiah or Jesus are describing something that can happen with natural bodies, or natural worms, in a natural world as we live in now, you are aren't looking close enough at what Isaiah or Jesus are saying.
In the natural world we live in now, a natural body would burn up, a worm would die, there would remain no more fire, and there wouldn't be any of the wicked left there for the worshipers to see and abhor week after week and month after month.
That is completely wrong.
It is the worm and fire that dies not.
Anything thrown in there is completely consumed.
To look on the carcases, is not to visualy look on the carcases.
LA
"Change your view, not the Bible."-Ernie Douglas,Jr.
Wow-the 6787 th time for that head scratcher!
Good one, coming from a bible corrector, who never met a bible he did not correct/change, whose "doctrine" determines what the book should say, and determines what the bible is, and, if it does not agree with his "doctrine," he changes/corrects it.
Most people are mixed up about what happens to the beast worshippers during Gods wrath, during the thousand years, and afterward.
LA
LA
No, it's not.
Even if you believe it is only the worm and the fire that continue (which it isn't), it still cannot happen in the natural world we now live in.
Isaiah was not describing something that would happen in the natural world we live in now.
It plainly says what will be looked upon by the worshipers that come from week to week and month to month.
Isaiah 66 KJV
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
If they were not still there to be looked upon, then neither would their worm or their fire still be there.
Here we have a fulfilment of looking upon carcases-
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Believers read about them in the Bible every sabbath now, but more so after Christ returns.
None will be looking upon any carcases or any in hellfire after the last judgment event. They will not need the warnings of it.
Jesus used Gehenna to describe the complete annilation of anything thrown into it at the last judgment.
Perish means perish not eternal preservation in punishment.
Punishment before annialation is consistently taught throughout the Bible for the wicked.
LA
Do not forget to consider what happens to those babies God had Israel kill when they entered into Canaan or when the flood killed all but eight souls in the flood, or in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
We will not see them in Heaven, and they will not suffer eternally either.
LA
We will not see them in Heaven, and they will not suffer eternally either.
LA
Only one who is conscious, could have no rest day or night. The destroyed or completely consumed, could not be said to have no rest.
Please explain this problem.