Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Doormat]

outside of time is outside of time, everything is eternal. The only death of a spiritual being is eternal existence apart from God..

What is the source of their life if they are existing apart from God? Does God no longer sustain them in their alleged state of eternal torture? How does that work?

Jesus said about physically alive people "let the dead bury their dead".

He was speaking of the first death. You could call the first death ignorance or darkness.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Whoever is not raised to life from the first death (the first resurrection) will experience the second death at the last resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Timotheos]

In Revelation, strong Greek words are used. They are tormented day and night forever and ever. Your group tries to redefine torment and forever and ever, but it is a rationalization that does not stand up to scrutiny.

I am aware of the greek, I read the NT in greek everyday.
The greek doesn't support eternal conscious torment any better than the english translations do.

Death is separation, not cessation. We have a spirit that will live forever by God's irrevocable design. This necessitates two destinies.

No, death is not separation. Death is the end of life. We are not inherently immortal. We only receive immortality as a gift from God. He doesn't give the gift of immortality to those who reject Him.

Perish does not mean atomize. A core of existence still can happen without cessation. Food perishes without disappearing.

I never said perish meant atomize. Perish means to die. Perish doesn't mean "to never perish but instead live forever in hell being tormented."

A rationalization? No, Conditional Immortality is a doctrine that I arrived at after years of careful bible study. If Conditionalism is a rationalization, what is eternal tormentism? Tormentalism is a rationalization that doesn't stand up to careful scrutiny. But I understand that there aren't a lot of people who have scrutinized the doctrine of torment. So I am very careful to not say anything bad about people who believe in eternal conscious torment. It seems to be the "default setting". It takes bible study to stop believing in eternal conscious torment.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Well i'm Bi-polar. So i'm well aware that there is a mental hell in the here,and now sometimes.lol...Now were those times a constant eternal perpetual state,without the hope of CHRIST it would be hell. Even a descent feeling for all eternity without the hope of CHRIST would be a hell. People most often commit suicide when they feel there is absolutely no HOPE.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

And since GOD is eternal, it would seem HE became a Sacrifice far more for eternal reasons than just temporal.

 

[Timotheos]

And since GOD is eternal, it would seem HE became a Sacrifice far more for eternal reasons than just temporal.

I agree, His death gives us eternal life so we don't have to pay the wages of sin ourselves, which is death. The second death is eternal, so...yeah, I'm with you on this.

 

[tomlapalm]

What is the source of their life if they are existing apart from God? Does God no longer sustain them in their alleged state of eternal torture? How does that work?



He was speaking of the first death. You could call the first death ignorance or darkness.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Whoever is not raised to life from the first death (the first resurrection) will experience the second death at the last resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How can a physically dead person bury the dead?

It was the spiritual dead.

 

[Timotheos]

How can a physically dead person bury the dead?

It was the spiritual dead.

I believe Jesus was saying something like "Let the dead bury the dead, metaphorically speaking".

It was the metaphorically dead. :box:

Edit to add: I like your slogan, I agree. Baptists are not Protestants.

 

[godrulz]

ECT is taught in more cults than Annihilationism. Are you really sure you want to go in that direction? I am asking what does the Bible teach, I am not asking what do the cults teach. Mormons and Muslims teach ECT. Does that make ECT wrong or right?

Mormons teach post-mortem salvation. The biblical, historical, orthodox view is ECT. JWs teach annihilation because C.T. Russell put reason above revelation. The issue is what does the Bible say, not what any given group or person believes (a bad group can have some truth and vice versa).

 

[Doormat]

How can a physically dead person bury the dead?

The first death is not physical death. Were you dead in your sins? That is the first death.

The second death is annihilation.

 

[godrulz]

Nice verses, brother!
Isn't there any verse that actually says that the wicked will live forever in torment in hell? Because I don't see that in any of these verses. Do you know what happens to a toad that is thrown into a lake of fire? The same thing that happens to everything else, it is burned up. Some of the verses you posted even come straight out and say "The lake of fire is the second death". That's what I beleive the lake of fire is, death. The second death. The lake of fire is definitely not eternal life swimming in fire.

Death is separation, not cessation, in Scripture.

 

[godrulz]

GR, you can do better than this. aionios means "an undefined period of time" - so it can be eternal, in the English sense of the word, or it can be just a long undefined period of time - like when God said no person shall inhabit a land forever that he destroyed in the OT yet people live there today.

If you fail to accept aionios for what it means that means you have no real interest in the truth, only defending your Catholic doctrines (yes, Catholic, they invented the idea of eternal conscious torment).

Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a limited period of time. You ignore the primary meanings of everlasting/eternal and introduce a minor one to suit your purposes.

Trinity, hell, etc. are biblical, not unbiblical Catholic or pagan teachings.

 

[godrulz]

Well, I suppose if we were to take the highly symbolic Book of Revelation completely literally that would be three. The Devil, The Beast, and The False Prophet.

Can you find any verses that say "The wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead"? That's really what I'm looking for.

Here's something to think about when you read the Book of Revelation. The BOR was written in the "Apocalyptic Style" which is characterized by an abundant use of symbolism. It might not be the best idea to grab a doctrine from the BOR and then use it to interpret all of the rest of scripture. A sound hermeneutical principle is to interpret less clear passages in the light of more clear passages. Don't start in Revelation and work backwards from there.

Actually, that's just a friendly suggestion. You can do whatever you want. Bless you brother!

Revelation should be interpreted with a normative literal approach which also recognizes figures of speech, symbols, etc., but only when the context demands it. The cumulative evidence in and outside of Revelation does not support your view.

 

[godrulz]

ECT is a doctrine of demons.

If you believe it, then what you believe amounts to Eternal "Christian" Torture.

Is that how you would like to punish your enemies if given the chance? Why or why not.

Your argument is emotional/sentimental, not evidence based.

Do you affirm or reject the Trinity? Which group do you identify with?

 

[godrulz]

outside of time is outside of time, everything is eternal. The only death of a spiritual being is eternal existence apart from God.. Jesus said about physically alive people "let the dead bury their dead".

Jesus was talking about physical death (maybe spiritual death), but not eternal death.

 

[Tinark]

Neg rep for calling scripture a doctrine of demons. Repent you demon possessed perverted of the truth.

:chuckle:

Without any evidence to determine one way or another, I guess these religious arguments on who is right is whoever shouts the loudest and can make the best insults and can create the most fear in their opponent?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Nobody would like to believe in annihilation more than me...but I would have to deny the bible.

If you throw out bible truth about a matter God will not teach you about it until you repent, you will have to seek out men teachers and learn from them.

The fact is only God sees the inner man of the unrepentant sinner, only He sees the enormity of sin and what judgement it is worthy of.

 

[Tinark]

Nobody would like to believe in annihilation more than me...but I would have to deny the bible.
If you throw out bible truth about a matter God will not teach you about it until you repent, you will have to seek out men teachers and learn from them.

Take a look at the verses Doormat posted previously here. They are consistent with the annihilation intrepretation.

 

[godrulz]

Well i'm Bi-polar. So i'm well aware that there is a mental hell in the here,and now sometimes.lol...Now were those times a constant eternal perpetual state,without the hope of CHRIST it would be hell. Even a descent feeling for all eternity without the hope of CHRIST would be a hell. People most often commit suicide when they feel there is absolutely no HOPE.

Hell is not a medieval torture chamber, but it is reality. Those who deny this are heretical on this point.

 

[godrulz]

How can a physically dead person bury the dead?

It was the spiritual dead.

But it was not the eternally dead (destiny is not fixed until death).

 

[Doormat]

Your argument is emotional/sentimental, not evidence based.

Do you affirm or reject the Trinity? Which group do you identify with?

Answer my questions and I will answer your questions:

1. Do you still sin from time-to-time? Yes or no.
2. Is sin a bad fruit? Yes or no.
3. Can a good tree bear bad fruit? Yes or no.
4. Did Jesus have the capacity to sin, i.e. was not impeccable? Yes or no.
5. Is the body of Christ literally the body of God? Yes or no.