Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Hobie]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

Just look at the way the word eternal is used in Jude 7. Jude writes that the people of Sodom suffered the punishment of “eternal fire.” The fires of Sodom are not still burning, however, nor are its inhabitants. Depending on the context, eternal does not necessarily mean for ever. But we have to start with the first issue, which is the question of is anyone burning in hell now or at their death. The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.

Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.

Christ said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.

Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.

Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. Jesus also says in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Then again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Then is the Second Coming, when He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection when Christ comes again.

Now the earth is declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.

The wicked cannot continue to live in this earth because they have never trusted Christ for eternal life. It is only the righteous who receive the gift of eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. ..." John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him, what happens to them? The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death-eternal death which is the second death, complete separation from God, never to be brought back. Only the righteous are promised life-eternal life.

We read this in scripture:
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43, 44.

So what is the unquenchable fire that scripture speaks about that burns the wicked? Doesn't that mean it will never go out? Of course, it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it.

We see it also in “But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath-day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath-day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27. But is it still burning today, we need to read and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. Isaiah says of that fire, "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. So it is with the wicked.

 

[Caino]

The concept of an eternal torment has God resurrecting the unsaved, torturing them and keeping them alive for that purpose. That's not a "good" God.

 

[Derf]

Just look at the way the word eternal is used in Jude 7. Jude writes that the people of Sodom suffered the punishment of “eternal fire.” The fires of Sodom are not still burning, however, nor are its inhabitants. Depending on the context, eternal does not necessarily mean for ever. But we have to start with the first issue, which is the question of is anyone burning in hell now or at their death. The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.

Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.

Christ said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.

Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.

Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. Jesus also says in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Then again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Then is the Second Coming, when He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection when Christ comes again.

Now the earth is declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.

The wicked cannot continue to live in this earth because they have never trusted Christ for eternal life. It is only the righteous who receive the gift of eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. ..." John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him, what happens to them? The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death-eternal death which is the second death, complete separation from God, never to be brought back. Only the righteous are promised life-eternal life.

We read this in scripture:
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43, 44.

So what is the unquenchable fire that scripture speaks about that burns the wicked? Doesn't that mean it will never go out? Of course, it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it.

We see it also in “But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath-day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath-day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27. But is it still burning today, we need to read and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. Isaiah says of that fire, "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. So it is with the wicked.

I wonder if your Jude 7 reference is read correctly most times. I'd like to offer the following, which is from the KJV, though I altered the punctuation very slightly (my new punctuation and a single letter changed from capital to lower case to fit the new punctuation are shown in red):
[Jde 1:6-7 KJV] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day--even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example--suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

What this does, if correct, is to move the description of "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" from pointing to Sodom and Gomorrah to pointing to the angels waiting for judgment, and specifically calls out what that judgment will be: eternal fire.

It leaves the judgment poured out on Sodom and Gomorrah exactly as we are given in the pages of scripture, that they are set forth as an example by the judgment that came upon them. And it allows the eternal angelic beings to be eternally punished, though not until AFTER they are judged.

I think this is important, because we usually think of ALL people being judged at the final judgment ([Rev 20:13 KJV] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.), except those that had participated in the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-5). If Sodom and Gomorrah were judged finally already, why couldn't the angels also be judged already--why keep them in bonds so long? If, as Paul says in 1Cor 6:2-3, believers will judge both the world and angels, then it seems like Sodom and Gomorrah should be included in "the world", and their final judgement is still future.

But if the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are yet to be judged finally ([Mat 11:24 KJV] 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.), of what purpose is that judgment if they are resurrected merely to be re-annihilated?

 

[Derf]

The concept of an eternal torment has God resurrecting the unsaved, torturing them and keeping them alive for that purpose. That's not a "good" God.

You may have missed the importance of the resurrection of the "unsaved". To be saved means to be relieved of the punishment of death. If they are resurrected, then they are "saved". Thus there is no "unsaved", since all are resurrected ([1Ti 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.). But if, when they are resurrected/saved, they receive a new kind of body (since the old body perished), what if that new kind of body is like the angels, and can no longer be killed? [Mat 22:30 KJV] 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

That still leaves to be explained how someone could be both saved and lost, but Rev 20:15 does it well--they aren't written in the book of life (anymore, possibly, since book of life is the indication that they are alive). As Christians, we hold that believing that Jesus Christ died that we might live puts our name in the book of life. If that same option is offered to the resurrected dead from Sodom and Gomorrah, then it is possible some might fare better than Capernaum, who were already offered the reality of Jesus but rejected Him (Matt 11:23).

 

[way 2 go]

Christ said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

no contradiction , hell is a place of fire which will be thrown into the lake of fire

Luk 16:22 And it happened, the poor one died and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in hell, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

 

[ok doser]

Every time this thread pops up I get my hopes up that Timmy's back.

 

[Hobie]

The concept of an eternal torment has God resurrecting the unsaved, torturing them and keeping them alive for that purpose. That's not a "good" God.

And it would not be just...

 

[Hobie]

no contradiction , hell is a place of fire which will be thrown into the lake of fire

Luk 16:22 And it happened, the poor one died and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in hell, lifting up his eyes, he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And calling he said, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

Well the second part is correct as the Lake of Fire is were the wicked meet their end, the second death were they perish, which is a final and complete separation from God and they cease to exist

But lets go over the 'bosom of Abraham' as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.

Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.

While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)

Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.

Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.

Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.

Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.

1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.

2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.

3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."https://support.amazingdiscoveries.org/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/252/0/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.

 

[way 2 go]

Well the second part is correct as the Lake of Fire is were the wicked meet their end, the second death were they perish, which is a final and complete separation from God and they cease to exist

continue to exist

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

But lets go over the 'bosom of Abraham' as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.

the Jesus lied accusation, again

Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.

addressed to his disciples
Luk 16:1 And He also said to His disciples,

While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)

Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.

there is such a thing as wool , sheep are real , and silver coins exist just like Hell exists and the lake of fire exists
and those without the righteousness of Christ will go to hell to await judgement day

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.

Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell?

heaven is not beside hell

Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

mocking Jesus & calling him a liar , sounds like a cult theology .

To take the parable literally is to create huge problems.

not a single problem would be created by reading the story of Lazarus & the rich man literally .

Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.

hell is not in heaven

Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.

its warning to you that hell is real.
Luk 16:27 And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.

1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.

from Luke 16:19-31
how do you know how his riches were gained ?
how do you know the rich man was dishonest ?

2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.

and a broken clock is right twice a day .

3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead.

Luk 16:27 And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 

[Caino]

Hell is purely an invention of primitive evolutionary religions. Because the wicked also prospered during life, the shamans and priest class had to invent a punishment in the afterlife for taboo violators.

 

[Aimiel]

Hell is purely an invention of primitive evolutionary religions. Because the wicked also prospered during life, the shamans and priest class had to invent a punishment in the afterlife for taboo violators.

No, Jesus described it in detail and warned against it stronger than anything. He even said it would be better to take out your eye or other body parts than to end up there. He said that for those bound for hell that it would be better for them had they never been born. You need to repent, since you're clearly on the broad road that ends at hell's gates.

 

[Aimiel]

Well the second part is correct as the Lake of Fire is were the wicked meet their end, the second death were they perish, which is a final and complete separation from God and they cease to exist.

If they were to no longer exist, this verse would be a lie:


Revelation 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[rstrats]

Aimiel,

Do you have any scripture which says that the supreme being will give the unsaved eternal life so that they can be tortured for ever and ever with no end?

 

[way 2 go]

Aimiel,

Do you have any scripture which says that the supreme being will give the unsaved eternal life so that they can be tortured for ever and ever with no end?

you are mistaken the dead don't need eternal life to exist


There is
spiritual death, physical death Mat 8:22
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.

there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel,

Do you have any scripture which says that the supreme being will give the unsaved eternal life so that they can be tortured for ever and ever with no end?

I just gave it to you.


Revelation 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up ​

for ever and ever

: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ​

They will be dead, and yet in torment. Dead because they can't breathe, grow or do anything other than suffer in flames of torment. Their existence will continue but it cannot be called life, since it has nothing to do with any other living beings. They will be alone in darkness, tormented by flames forever.

 

[Derf]

Aimiel,

Do you have any scripture which says that the supreme being will give the unsaved eternal life so that they can be tortured for ever and ever with no end?

There's Rev 20. Read the whole chapter. It starts by talking about a first resurrection and a second death. These concepts presuppose both 2 deaths and 2 resurrections, in this order: Death 1, Resurrection 1, Resurrection 2, Death 2.
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:6 KJV] Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Later in the chapter, the 2nd resurrection occurs, which appears to be universal, excepting only those that were previously resurrected.
[Rev 20:12 KJV] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[Rev 20:13 KJV] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Then comes a definition of the 2nd death:
[Rev 20:14 KJV] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And the judgment of those raised in the second resurrection (which leaves open the possibility that some of this group are saved from the second death):
[Rev 20:15 KJV] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (also known as "the second death" from vs 14)

It has bothered me that there are two deaths, and this passage pretty clearly indicates that those that are thrown in the lake of fire, that had died before, were indeed resurrected. If God's penalty for sin is death, then it would seem like God punishes more than the penalty by condemning to a second death after the first one.

So it brings up some questions for me.
1. What kind of resurrection is that second resurrection? If some can be saved from that group, what kind of bodies do they have? Bodies seem to be necessary for them to be resurrected. Jesus talks about what it's like in "the resurrection" here: [Mat 22:30 KJV] For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
And if the dead are given bodies again and are resurrected, then the dead have come back to life.
2. How are they like the angels in heaven? The obvious way is that they don't marry. But is there more to it than that? I don't know, but consider how some one of the angels, once in heaven, is treated in [Rev 20:10 KJV] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If Satan was once an angel in heaven, and now he is cast into the lake of fire, he did not die first, but was thrown in alive, supposedly to be tormented forever and ever.
3. Is there a difference between the resurrected bodies of these recipients of the second resurrection compared to those of the first resurrection? The passage doesn't offer any. And if some of these are not thrown in the lake of fire, where do they go? It seems they are in the book of life and are welcomed into God's kingdom. If so, then aren't those resurrected into their new, glorified bodies that don't decay? And if those are resurrected into their glorified that don't decay, maybe the ones that are thrown into the lake of fire are also resurrected into similar bodies that don't decay--and aren't burned up! Or maybe they do burn up, but the bodies heal quickly enough that they aren't completely burned up.
4. And some of these thoughts started by my wondering about death as punishment for sin on the earth--if the resurrection is an indication of some kind of salvation (the penalty is nullified), is that nullification for the same reason that believers' sins are nullified: because of Christ's death on the cross? Why else would someone be able to be resurrected? There is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Once we have been saved from death (by resurrection), it seems like a choice is offered--serve Jesus Christ or don't. And those that don't are not offered a very pleasant alternative to experience with their brand new incorruptible bodies.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If they were to no longer exist, this verse would be a lie:


Revelation 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

According to the verse, the torment happens in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus, so this is not speaking about hell.

Revelation 14:10-11 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What did Jesus say happens to the people who are cast into hell?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

if those are resurrected into their glorified that don't decay, maybe the ones that are thrown into the lake of fire are also resurrected into similar bodies that don't decay--and aren't burned up! Or maybe they do burn up, but the bodies heal quickly enough that they aren't completely burned up.

How does that thought fit with the verse that says that both the soul and the body are destroyed in hell?

 

[Derf]

you are mistaken the dead don't need eternal life to exist


There is
spiritual death, physical death Mat 8:22
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.

there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God

Except this is referred to as the 2nd resurrection. And dead people don't stand. So these were given life again. They were referred to as dead because they used to be dead, and something else was about to happen to them.

 

[Omniskeptical]

αιωνος doesn't mean perpetual, but αιωνιος does. The word αιωνιος is used very sparingly, but αιωνος is used often and is often falsely translated as ever or with 'for ever' or as 'world'. It means a precedent of time.

 

[way 2 go]

Except this is referred to as the 2nd resurrection. And dead people don't stand.

the dead not only stand but walk the earth
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.

do you also want to redefine what life is biblically speaking ?

Joh 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

So these were given life again. They were referred to as dead because they used to be dead, and something else was about to happen to them.

if you were right it would say
Rev 20:12 And I saw those who were dead, the small and the great, stand before God
but it doesn't
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God