Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

andrewh

New member
Pathetic head-in-the-sand 3rd grade level interpretation.
So how do we help others adopt a more sophisticated interpretive framework? It has been my experience that it is only the exceedingly rare person who is sufficiently "open-minded" to ever change anything in a "theology" to which they are already committed.

I know this sounds cynical, but I think we have to "give up" on such people and try to make the case to those who are at the "entry point" to Christian faith.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
The Beast/False Prophet (humans) are put in the lake of fire at the start of the millennium. The verb tenses show they are still there when joined by Satan and the lost 1000 years later (end of millennium). Read the passages we already gave you. This is not a picture of annihilation. Much different inspired words would be used to show a different view than the biblical, historical, orthodox one.

Problem is you don't have a biblical historical orthodox view of eschatology so your ship is sunk before it ever leaves the dock.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
There is no theological, contextual, exegetical, grammatical reason to think these things support your view or contradict the traditional one.

You are not a Greek scholar and it shows.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
out from the 'box'........

out from the 'box'........

There is no theological, contextual, exegetical, grammatical reason to think these things support your view or contradict the traditional one.

There are plenty of problems with ECT on the principle alone......here.

You are not a Greek scholar and it shows.

One doesn't have to be a 'Greek scholar' to see the insanity of ECT.

What baffles me godrulz, is that while you appear to be 'sound' on some doctrinal issues, you've sold out your reasoning on this concept. Those stuck in a 'box' need to learn to think outside of it.


pj
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
There is no theological, contextual, exegetical, grammatical reason to think these things support your view or contradict the traditional one.

You are not a Greek scholar and it shows.

Then you do not believe that even the meanest translation is possible of getting the word of God across and that Gods word isnt returned void?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
There are plenty of problems with ECT on the principle alone......here.



One doesn't have to be a 'Greek scholar' to see the insanity of ECT.

What baffles me godrulz, is that while you appear to be 'sound' on some doctrinal issues, you've sold out your reasoning on this concept. Those stuck in a 'box' need to learn to think outside of it.


pj

You are Hindu, former Mormon, and you have discernment in sound doctrine?! Hardly...
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Then you do not believe that even the meanest translation is possible of getting the word of God across and that Gods word isnt returned void?

Huh?

What is a meanest translation?

I affirm the Word of God properly translated, interpreted, applied. People can reject the truth of the Word of God. Return void proof text has a context, so watch it.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
ect bites the dust......

ect bites the dust......

You are Hindu, former Mormon, and you have discernment in sound doctrine?! Hardly...

On a matter of principle ECT is indefensible. It matters not the religious affiliation, expertise or affection of one recognizing this fact,...the truth of it remains.

Beyond that, this 'dialogue' has turned into a 'merry-go-round'. What you have left is your 'standardized' traditional/orthodox LITERAL interpretation of a few verses in Revelation as some 'gold-standard', by which a whole maniacal doctrine is 'assumed', characterizing 'God' as an eternal Punisher, a wrathful Deity imposing its vindicating justice as 'torment' in endless procession. What a terrible concept of 'god'.



pj
 

Macfz

New member
So how do we help others adopt a more sophisticated interpretive framework? It has been my experience that it is only the exceedingly rare person who is sufficiently "open-minded" to ever change anything in a "theology" to which they are already committed.

I know this sounds cynical, but I think we have to "give up" on such people and try to make the case to those who are at the "entry point" to Christian faith.
I do not believe the adoption of a "more sophisticated interpretive framework" is what's necessary to bring about a positive eternal change (get them heaven-bound,) in someone's life. Philosophical arguments have their place, but they must only be a short precursor to the Gospel, and that is what must be planted without ceasing. Of course in Acts 17 Paul met the Athenians on their own ground both literally and figuratively, but he did not remain there.
1 Corinthians 1:17-24
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


These are familiar verses to 99% of Christian's I've met, no matter their age in the Lord. As such, they sadly tend to become trivial due to "popularity". We must be sharing God's word with everyone equally, "For there is no respect of persons with God."- Romans 2:11. It is not our place to decide beforehand whether or not His word will have the desired effect, and the fence-sitters are just as close to hell as those who, concerning zeal, are persecuting the church (Philippians 3:6). The mind cannot be changed for the better apart from salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:11-16
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Andrew, I have read neither the previous posts leading up to your statements I quoted, nor any posts that followed;what I'm suggesting may be what has already taken place. I'm mostly pointing out what I recognize to be a general trend here on the boards.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Huh?

What is a meanest translation?

I affirm the Word of God properly translated, interpreted, applied. People can reject the truth of the Word of God. Return void proof text has a context, so watch it.

I just quoted you the text notes from the translators of the 1611 king james bible and asked if you agreed.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
On a matter of principle ECT is indefensible. It matters not the religious affiliation, expertise or affection of one recognizing this fact,...the truth of it remains.

Beyond that, this 'dialogue' has turned into a 'merry-go-round'. What you have left is your 'standardized' traditional/orthodox LITERAL interpretation of a few verses in Revelation as some 'gold-standard', by which a whole maniacal doctrine is 'assumed', characterizing 'God' as an eternal Punisher, a wrathful Deity imposing its vindicating justice as 'torment' in endless procession. What a terrible concept of 'god'.



pj

Grulz why is it a Hindu has a better grasp on biblical principle than you do? Why do you continue to make God a monster contrary to God's revelation of himself?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Grulz why is it a Hindu has a better grasp on biblical principle than you do? Why do you continue to make God a monster contrary to God's revelation of himself?

Is a Judge a monster for putting someone like Hitler or Charles Manson in prison?!

God is a responsible Moral Governor of the universe. His love and holiness are not divorced from each other. He is not a monster for dealing justly with monsters after they reject His mercy.:loser:
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Is a Judge a monster for putting someone like Hitler or Charles Manson in prison?!

God is a responsible Moral Governor of the universe. His love and holiness are not divorced from each other. He is not a monster for dealing justly with monsters after they reject His mercy.:loser:

That is not your arguement.

You insist that ALL people who are not saved will suffer endless conscious torment in hell forever and ever and ever and ever without end.

I do not know of anyone who can trust a god like that, except you.

LA
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
That is not your arguement.

You insist that ALL people who are not saved will suffer endless conscious torment in hell forever and ever and ever and ever without end.

I do not know of anyone who can trust a god like that, except you.

LA

Jesus believed this and trusted the Father. Hundreds of millions of godly believers affirm this truth, the biblical, historical, orthodox view for 2000 years.

You reject revelation for sentimental luv. You underestimate God's holiness and overestimate man's goodness.

You fail to understand the nature of man (image of God=everlasting, not atomized), etc.
 

Timotheos

New member
Hundreds of millions of godly believers affirm this...

So then it must be correct? Is this how the truth is determined?
Doesn't it matter what the Bible says? If the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, it doesn't matter how many people believe that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell, the wages of sin is death.

Read Romans 6:23

A million people can be wrong, if they ignore what the Bible says and believe something just because 999,999 other people believe it. One person who believes what the Bible says, is correct. No matter how many people don't believe it. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.

If one million people jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?
 
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