Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

Their punishment will be eternal.

Pop Quiz Aimiel!

Do I believe or do I not believe that the punishment is eternal?
What do I ALWAYS say when someone points out to me that Matthew 25:46 says "These go away to eternal punishment"?

I want to see if you have been paying attention at all.

 

[Aimiel]

There is one thing that "Destruction" CAN'T mean. It can't mean "Never destroyed for all eternity". We know that the penalty is destruction, because of 2 Thess 1:9. We know that the wages of sin is death because of Romans 6:23. We know that it is the fate of the wicked to perish and be no more because of Psalm 37:10 and 20. Among many other verses. AND WE KNOW THAT THE LAKE OF FIRE IS THE SECOND DEATH because of Revelation 20:14 which says "The lake of fire is the second death".

So, there is no reason to try to make "destruction" mean "never destroyed, but tormented forever in the lake of fire instead of being ever destroyed."

Actually there are many reasons, because Scripture is quite clear about it. Satan and his demons, all of whom are created beings who did evil, who were judged, will be toremented in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever, as will all whose names were not found in The Lamb's Book of Life.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This isn't where anyone is ever described as being taken out of existence. It is where eternal torment takes place. You need to read and understand. Without believing Scripture, you end up with doctrine all mixed up.

 

[Timotheos]

Pop Quiz Aimiel!

Do I believe or do I not believe that the punishment is eternal?
What do I ALWAYS say when someone points out to me that Matthew 25:46 says "These go away to eternal punishment"?

I want to see if you have been paying attention at all.

I knew Aimiel wasn't paying attention.

 

[Timotheos]

You need to read and understand. Without believing Scripture, you end up with doctrine all mixed up.

I have, and I posted a lot of scripture that you have ignored. Until you respond to the scripture I posted, I consider your opinion to be just that. Your opinion and nothing else. Your theology is messed up because you don't consider anything anyone else has to say. You think you already know everything.

 

[Timotheos]

Without believing Scripture,

Until you understand that I believe scripture, we will get nowhere. You keep on saying that I don't believe scripture, even though I have repeatedly told you that I do. You have crossed the line into deceit. You are aware that I believe scripture, yet you continue to lie and say that I don't believe scripture. That makes you a liar. Why should anyone believe a liar?

 

[godrulz]

We do not reject the Bible properly translated/interpreted. We reject your subjective, exegetical, theological errors/interpretation of it...big difference.

The truth of heaven vs hell is attacked in this liberal generation. You have fallen for a compromised error.

I will not join you.

 

[Timotheos]

We do not reject the Bible properly translated/interpreted. We reject your subjective, exegetical, theological errors/interpretation of it...big difference.

The truth of heaven vs hell is attacked in this liberal generation. You have fallen for a compromised error.

I will not join you.

Cool, I never asked you to join me. Do you want to study the Bible together and see what we can find?

 

[godrulz]

Cool, I never asked you to join me. Do you want to study the Bible together and see what we can find?

I have studied the subject and know your exegesis/theology/word studies are flawed. Case closed. I do not have to study with a JW to know I am right about the Deity of Christ and that they are wrong about it (and soul, hell, trinity, salvation, resurrection, etc.).atrol:

 

[Aimiel]

Until you understand that I believe scripture, we will get nowhere.

I have, and I posted a lot of scripture that you have ignored. Until you respond to the scripture I posted, I consider your opinion to be just that. Your opinion and nothing else. Your theology is messed up because you don't consider anything anyone else has to say. You think you already know everything.

 

[Arthur Brain]

We do not reject the Bible properly translated/interpreted. We reject your subjective, exegetical, theological errors/interpretation of it...big difference.

The truth of heaven vs hell is attacked in this liberal generation. You have fallen for a compromised error.

I will not join you.

There's nothing "liberal" about 'attacking' a doctrine which depicts a cruel and capricious God. You really do sound like a legalist of old when you pull this kind of stunt. How were the original translators of the texts so far off the mark to fail to glean the doctrine of eternal suffering in the main?

 

[freelight]

On principle alone,....its backwards......

On principle alone,....its backwards......

You claim that you believe all of it, yet you reject all of the scriptures I posted in favor of your interpretation of ONE passage in the symbolic book of Revelation. Do I need to tell you ONCE AGAIN (just to have you ignore me, AGAIN) that everlasting punishment is NOT the same thing as everlasting torment??? You and I AGREE that there will be eternal punishment. We just disagree on the form it takes. You say the punishment will be ECT, even though you can't produce even one verse in the whole bible that says this, while I believe the punishment is eternal destruction, because of ALL of the MANY verses I've shown you that say this. Could you address the verses I've given you and at least tell me WHY you reject them?

And in circles it goes - even if we take ECT by itself on principle alone, it is rife with problems on moral, just, ethical, logical and reasonable grounds...since an endless punishment of conscious beings is barbaric in nature, especially if this 'punishment' condemns souls to an eternity of suffering from which is absolutely no relief or salvation EVER. At least in the 'soul-death' view...the punishment is final and eternal in the sense that it effects a "death" that is final and eternal. There is no sadistic 'god' keeping these souls bound in hopelesseness forever. (how sick and twisted is that?) One doesn't even need to pitter-patter over 'proof-texts' to see that ECT is a primitive, heinous and completely backward 'doctrine' (a retarded concept carried over from the Dark Ages).

~*~*~

As I've shared earlier however, there is much more to the Afterlife and the various components that make up the soul, some parts being 'mortal', 'immortal' or having 'immortality-potential'. Man is composed of spirit, soul and body, but other schools speak of 7 bodies (or 'sheaths) of man,....so there is more than even a 'tri-partite' composition of man, which merits deeper study from the Esoteric schools (currently diving into theosophical and the ancient wisdom traditions on the subject). We might note an important point here, and that is no matter your view....the mortal aspects of the 'soul' are subject to 'death' or 'disintegration' UNLESS they are made 'eternal' or 'immortalized' by union or merging into or 'with' the higher perfection and incorruptibility of the divine nature. This is an important distinction,..but as we said merits deeper study from the broad band of knowledge on the subject by those studied in 'occult science'.



pj

 

[freelight]

smack

smack

I have studied the subject and know your exegesis/theology/word studies are flawed. Case closed. I do not have to study with a JW to know I am right about the Deity of Christ and that they are wrong about it (and soul, hell, trinity, salvation, resurrection, etc.).atrol:

So. You are locked into a prefigured concept of immovable dogma and assumption, contorting God's character to fit a literal interpretation, all because you'd prefer ECT, but as we've unveiled, its a heinous conclusion that denies the moral goodness, justice and mercy of 'God' in his relationship to his creation. Which is why some kind of 'soul-death' or 'universalism' (but there are other possibilities) is much more tenable, logical and reasonable than ECT, which is monstrous to say the least.

The case isn't closed. Your MIND is.



pj

 

[godrulz]

There's nothing "liberal" about 'attacking' a doctrine which depicts a cruel and capricious God. You really do sound like a legalist of old when you pull this kind of stunt. How were the original translators of the texts so far off the mark to fail to glean the doctrine of eternal suffering in the main?

Hell flows from the love of God who is not fickle nor cruel. It is necessitated by the nature of creation in the image of God (spirit that does not die) and free will that can reject the love/grace of God.

God is holy, just, and merciful, gracious.

He does not extend mercy to the impenitent (not wise nor just).

 

[Arthur Brain]

Hell flows from the love of God who is not fickle nor cruel. It is necessitated by the nature of creation in the image of God (spirit that does not die) and free will that can reject the love/grace of God.

Oh puh-leeze. Eternal torment does not flow from anything which could be remotely associated with love. It's mind boggling that you'd even attempt to correlate the two.

God is holy, just, and merciful, gracious.

Which doesn't by any means 'necessitate' eternal suffering.

He does not extend mercy to the impenitent (not wise nor just).

Have you never extended mercy to those who have wronged you without their having signs of remorse? Do you think those that have are foolish or weak for having dispensed such?

 

[godrulz]

God is the Judge, a perfect Moral Governor. Even if I forgive the killer of my wife, the killer will still face God's justice.:guitar:

 

[Arthur Brain]

God is the Judge, a perfect Moral Governor. Even if I forgive the killer of my wife, the killer will still face God's justice.:guitar:

Nobody is saying God isn't. You really haven't answered anything with this....

 

[Timotheos]

I have studied the subject and know your exegesis/theology/word studies are flawed. Case closed. I do not have to study with a JW to know I am right about the Deity of Christ and that they are wrong about it (and soul, hell, trinity, salvation, resurrection, etc.).atrol:

Hello Mr Rulz,
I thought I made it very clear to you before that I am not a JW and I entirely agree that Jesus is God. I don't mind studying with you even though I disagree with your Mormon/Muslim Doctrine of Eternal Torment in Hell that comes from Pagan Greek and Roman fairy tales. :cheers:

My exegesis is flawed? How so? The Bible says that wicked will perish and be no more, I agree with that. Don't you agree with the Bible on this? And the Bible says in John 3:16 that whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish but will have eternal life. I exegete that to mean that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but will have eternal life. The Greek word for "perish" in John 3:16 is "apoletai" and actually does mean "perish" just as the Greek Language Experts who translate the Bible translated it.

But I don't mind if you don't want to study this. I was just asking. As far as I'm concerned you can hold onto your ECT dogma, just like the Mormons and the Muslims do.

The case isn't closed. Your MIND is.

Freelight is right. We could just bang the gavel and say the Bible is right and Mr Rulz is wrong, and let you deal with the consequences. But this issue is too important to let fall. What we believe about Eternal Torture reflects what we believe about God. If you believe that there is a place of eternal torture designed by the Creator, then you believe that God approves of torture. But if you believe the Bible which says that death is the natural consequence of sin, the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid the consequence of sin for us, then you believe that God is good and rescues us from the sin which enslaves and kills us.

Hold on to your Muslim Theology of Hell and your flawed exegesis and bizarre definition changes of the words perish, die, death, etc, if you want to. I'm just telling you that the Bible doesn't support ECTism. I would be remiss if I didn't tell you that.

 

[Timotheos]

I have, and I posted a lot of scripture that you have ignored. Until you respond to the scripture I posted, I consider your opinion to be just that. Your opinion and nothing else. Your theology is messed up because you don't consider anything anyone else has to say. You think you already know everything.

The reason that I left ECTism is that I realized that I didn't know everything. I checked everything I once believed against the Bible to make sure that what I believed was scripturally solid. ECTism failed to agree with scripture so I had to leave it. Conditional Immortality fits with scripture much better.

I haven't ignored any scripture you have posted. Go check and see. But you continue to ignore the scripture I've posted, so I'm putting you on ignore. I have considered everything you posted, but I will believe the Bible instead of what you say. I used to hold your view, so you are wrong to claim that I haven't considered it. The Biblical evidence was too strong so I had to discard ECTism.

You are now on ignore. If you ever get around to responding to the scripture I posted, I'll take you off ignore.

 

[Timotheos]

And in circles it goes - even if we take ECT by itself on principle alone, it is rife with problems on moral, just, ethical, logical and reasonable grounds...since an endless punishment of conscious beings is barbaric in nature, especially if this 'punishment' condemns souls to an eternity of suffering from which is absolutely no relief or salvation EVER. At least in the 'soul-death' view...the punishment is final and eternal in the sense that it effects a "death" that is final and eternal. There is no sadistic 'god' keeping these souls bound in hopelessness forever. (how sick and twisted is that?) One doesn't even need to pitter-patter over 'proof-texts' to see that ECT is a primitive, heinous and completely backward 'doctrine' (a retarded concept carried over from the Dark Ages).

I agree.

But since the ECTists CLAIM that they believe the Bible, I use the Bible to prove them wrong. Everyone can see that Eternal Torture is unjust. But if they think that the Bible teaches it, they gloss over the injustice of torture, thinking:

"God's ways are "higher" than our ways so if our god tortures it must be okay, doot-de-doot, we aren't meant to understand it, duh umm duh".

That was almost an exact quote from one of ECTists.

Obviously the opposite of "Eternal Life" is not "Eternal Torment". The opposite of "Eternal Life" is Death.

 

[Timotheos]

Oh puh-leeze. Eternal torment does not flow from anything which could be remotely associated with love. It's mind boggling that you'd even attempt to correlate the two.

Welcome to the thread Mr Brain! :cheers:
We need more brains here. Somebody said

"eternal destruction, which is torment in flames..."

The need is desperate. Send brains now.