they want you to suffer tim
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Aimiel
Well-known member
Nothing. That's why I believe in ECT.
That's great! Meet me in South Dakota. I have a lot of relatives buried out there. We can get together and end this "death" thing.
Okay, I'll ask again. Where does the Bible say that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment? Because I believe the Bible which says that the wages of sin is death. Where does the Bible say that the wicked will live forever in hell being tormented forever? Because MY Bible says that the wicked will perish and be no more.
You don't believe in ECT because the Bible teaches it. The Bible teaches that the wicked will be no more. That is the OPPOSITE of ECT.
John the Baptist didn't believe in eternal punishment
Matthew 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
That's true.
Jesus Christ didn't believe in eternal conscious punishment either:
Matthew 7:19 (NIV)
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age."
Matthew 13:36-40 NIV
Jesus didn't believe in ECT.
Is that why they never answer when I ask for the chapter and verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will live forever being tormented alive forever when they are dead (yet somehow alive)?
I would happily believe in ECT just as soon as someone produces a verse that says "And the wicked shall go to Hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment forever". So far nobody has shown me this verse. This leaves me to believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
Why don't these people believe the Bible? One of them said "I believe the Bible (which doesn't say anywhere that there is ECT) that's why I believe in ECT." They might as well say "I believe in Narnia because the Bible doesn't say anything about Narnia".
Aimiel
Well-known member
Really?
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Really.
Matthew 25:46 says eternal PUNISHMENT, not eternal TORMENT.
The wicked will be destroyed, just as he said in Matthew 7:19 and 13:36-40.
Word games.
No. It's called "reading".
The wages of sin is death, not Eternal Conscious Torment.
Why do you think the wages of sin is ETC when the Bible clearly and specifically says that the wages of sin is death?
Zeke
Well-known member
The proof text straw man is rediculous, every time a writter mentions a verse from the prophets, is in fact doing what your complaining about.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Not erased or poofed out of existence, but punished for eternity. :duh:
But the thing is, Is that what Matthew 25:46 says? Or is that what you are assuming because you believe in ECT? And I never said "erased" or "poofed out of existence". From what I see written in the Bible, the wicked are burned up. They are consumed by the fire. The Original Greek puts it very strongly, katakausei, in Matthew 3:12. Katakausei means "completely burned up". The prefix kata means down, so the word means that the thing is completely burned down. Nothing is left. "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up (katakausei) the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Please don't say "duh", to me. It is very insulting. You are implying that this is obvious and that I am stupid for not agreeing with you. The reason I don't agree with you is not that I am stupid, it is because you are simply wrong. There is no reason for you to be offensive. Matthew 25:46 simply does not say anything about ECT.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Then you need to take remedial English courses until you understand the language or how to engage fellow debaters. God chose to make His Word contentious, to leave so much for us to discuss. When you ignore Truth, it becomes impossible to reason with others.
God certainly wouldn't wake up all those who are doomed from their 'death' to cause them to be burned up into nothing. Scripture clearly indicates that the Lake of Fire is going to torment it's captives for ever and ever. If you don't see that, then it's because your eyes are closed.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
dissecting 'words'......
dissecting 'words'......
Well of course. Beyond the tedious argument of what words mean, or are 'assumed' to mean, what else have you? We've already explained the insanity of ECT, especially if enforced or maintained by a 'god' who is supposed to be just and merciful, whose will is for the good and prosperity of all. Torturing souls for all eternity, depriving them of any 'relief' or 'salvation' is 'insidious'.
'Punishment' or 'consequences' for transgressing any law (natural or spiritual) follow naturally, and as long as any particular 'sin' is engaged in...unless or until reparation or atonement is made for sins, and a soul repents, thus no longer suffering such consequences. The law of karma is justly appropriate to the crime committed, and is remedied by repentance and making restitution for such, and/or absolving and transcending such karmic laws by the higher law of love, which fulfills the law perfectly, in which there is no sin. One who abides in Love, is free (sinless), in a state of at-one-ment with 'God'.
Yes, beyond the realization of God's reality, or Reality itself...all 'else' is just words of course. We must however use the media of 'language' to communicate, and such symbols by nature are imperfect and limited. However when considering principles such as truth, justice, mercy, love, wisdom, fairness.....it is evident that ECT is illogical, unjust, insane...since Love does all in its power and makes salvation available as long as souls are 'conscious' and have response-ability. I believe the pathway is ever open for souls to unfold their natural and divine potential, partaking of immortality and ascending to the heights of God-consciousness. This would be forfeited only IF souls could actually suffer an eternal and final death (cessation of individual existence), in which case they would be no more, being wholly disintegrated, their spirit-energy dissolving back to Source. This termination is eternal, as far as that particular soul-unit or individual-potential of personality is concernred.
The word games may continue with those stuck on particular words, terms or meaning assuming they are 'true' or 'absolute'. However, some things are unknowable and can only be speculated, beyond what information or knowledge we have about the afterlife from spirits themselves (collected in volumes of spirit-communications from various schools and mediums).
pj
dissecting 'words'......
Well of course. Beyond the tedious argument of what words mean, or are 'assumed' to mean, what else have you? We've already explained the insanity of ECT, especially if enforced or maintained by a 'god' who is supposed to be just and merciful, whose will is for the good and prosperity of all. Torturing souls for all eternity, depriving them of any 'relief' or 'salvation' is 'insidious'.
'Punishment' or 'consequences' for transgressing any law (natural or spiritual) follow naturally, and as long as any particular 'sin' is engaged in...unless or until reparation or atonement is made for sins, and a soul repents, thus no longer suffering such consequences. The law of karma is justly appropriate to the crime committed, and is remedied by repentance and making restitution for such, and/or absolving and transcending such karmic laws by the higher law of love, which fulfills the law perfectly, in which there is no sin. One who abides in Love, is free (sinless), in a state of at-one-ment with 'God'.
Yes, beyond the realization of God's reality, or Reality itself...all 'else' is just words of course. We must however use the media of 'language' to communicate, and such symbols by nature are imperfect and limited. However when considering principles such as truth, justice, mercy, love, wisdom, fairness.....it is evident that ECT is illogical, unjust, insane...since Love does all in its power and makes salvation available as long as souls are 'conscious' and have response-ability. I believe the pathway is ever open for souls to unfold their natural and divine potential, partaking of immortality and ascending to the heights of God-consciousness. This would be forfeited only IF souls could actually suffer an eternal and final death (cessation of individual existence), in which case they would be no more, being wholly disintegrated, their spirit-energy dissolving back to Source. This termination is eternal, as far as that particular soul-unit or individual-potential of personality is concernred.
The word games may continue with those stuck on particular words, terms or meaning assuming they are 'true' or 'absolute'. However, some things are unknowable and can only be speculated, beyond what information or knowledge we have about the afterlife from spirits themselves (collected in volumes of spirit-communications from various schools and mediums).
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
satans servants.......
satans servants.......
Sadly, this seems more like the will and delight of 'Satan', than a loving 'God'. Makes you wonder the 'mentality' of some religionists, who they are puppets for.
pj
satans servants.......
Sadly, this seems more like the will and delight of 'Satan', than a loving 'God'. Makes you wonder the 'mentality' of some religionists, who they are puppets for.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
This from a guy peddling every religion known to men (except Christianity, of course).
I am not ignoring truth. I believe the bible and you have not presented any evidence to back up your claim of ECT.
The bible says that He will. You are wrong. When you ignore the truth is impossible to reason with you. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment. You are ignoring that, and that is what the Bible says.
Your eyes are closed, not mine. If you can't see that it is because your eyes are closed. The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death, the Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is ECT. If you can't see that it is because your eyes are closed, and your ears.
Okay Aimiel. It's time to put up or shut up.
You show me the verse that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be in eternal conscious torment forever. You can't use the lake of fire, because John already told us in Revelation 20:14 that the lake of fire is the second DEATH. If Scripture clearly indicates this, as you claim, you should have no problem producing a verse that backs up your claim.
My claim is that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23.