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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Really Tambora?

    You are going here?

    Mark 9 KJV
    (
    43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    (45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    (46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    (47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    (48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    The passage you quoted from Mark refers to a passage in Isaiah. I'm very surprised that you didn't know this. If you had, you would never have brought up this passage, because it supports the case for Conditional Immortality so well. Here's the passage from Isaiah, it is easy to find, it's the last chapter.
    Isaiah 66:14-24

    When you see this, your heart will rejoice
    and you will flourish like grass;
    the hand of the Lord will be made known to his servants,
    but his fury will be shown to his foes.
    See, the Lord is coming with fire,
    and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
    he will bring down his anger with fury,
    and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    For with fire and with his sword
    the Lord will execute judgment upon all men,
    and many will be those slain by the Lord.

    “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst ofa those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,” declares the Lord.
    “And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.
    “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyansc and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

    “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

    As you can plainly see, the reference to fire and worms refers the dead bodies of God's enemies who are slain. The worms eat the dead bodies, and the fire burns dead bodies. The worms do not torment living people, and the fire isn't tormenting living people.
    Since this passage plainly shows the coming judgment, and it plainly shows that God's enemies will be destroyed, and not tormented alive, this passage clearly proves Conditional Immortality / Annihilationism and clearly disproves Eternal Conscious Torment.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
      Right, cut off, from Life in Christ, spiritual death for eternity, separation from God for eternity, where there is no rest day or night.

      How can something that been destroyed completely, have rest or unrest?

      Hint: they cant, it means they are aware, and being unable to stop being aware.
      You seriously need to stop taking the figurative language of Revelation literally. Dead people are not conscious. The lake of fire is the second death.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
        You seriously need to stop taking the figurative language of Revelation literally. Dead people are not conscious. The lake of fire is the second death.
        That is your problem. The dead are conscious. They are very aware of what goes on around them or are you an annihilationist? Remember the "Parable " in Luke 16?
        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

        Jim Elliot

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
          You seriously need to stop taking the figurative language of Revelation literally. Dead people are not conscious. The lake of fire is the second death.
          Physically Dead people cannot be said to have no rest day or night can they under your belief? I thought you believed them asleep.

          See how you contradict your own beliefs?
          sigpic

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
            Do you have scripture that specifically calls hell and death angels?
            I think it's obvious from Scripture. It only makes sense.
            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              That is your problem. The dead are conscious. They are very aware of what goes on around them or are you an annihilationist? Remember the "Parable " in Luke 16?
              yes, hes teaching annihilation and soul sleep in this thread.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                I think it's obvious from Scripture. It only makes sense.
                Hell is a place. Death is a thing. Angels are beings.
                He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                Jim Elliot

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                  Yes, evidentally you do not, and prefer fairy tales to actual Bible study. And why on earth would you quote the verse that says "the lake of fire is the second death" to try to prove to me that the lake of fire is NOT the second death? Was that just a mistake? Did you attempt to quote some other verse and the verse that supports my position popped out by accident? Clumsy.
                  I don't think so. Death annihilated in the Lake of Fire? Duh! It will be tormented along with all the other wicked.
                  "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                  If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                    yes, hes teaching annihilation and soul sleep in this thread.
                    Sorry, no such thing!
                    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                    Jim Elliot

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                      Hell is a place. Death is a thing. Angels are beings.
                      Yes, but Hell and Death are also spirits, which will be cast into the Lake of Fire, along with all other principalities, powers and rulers of the darkness of this world.

                      Revelation 6:8
                      And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was "Death," and "Hell" followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

                      Hell was riding right behind Death in his vision.

                      Originally posted by Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
                      Death and Hades, as personified representatives of the enemies of Christ' and His Church, are said to be cast into the lake of fire to express the truth that Christ and His people shall never more die, or be in the state of disembodied spirits.
                      "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                      If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                        Excellent post Tambora.

                        We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                        They already know monsters exist.
                        We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                          Because the Bible says they are to be resurrected for judgment and THEN sent to the second death. And why bother asking God why? If wea re to do that, Why don't you ask God why he bothers sending the lost to hell to be tormented, then waste time resurrecting them, just to send them back to hell for more eternal torment?
                          The spirit-soul lives on after death. Bodily resurrection of believers and unbelievers is a future event for both (but separated by 1000 years). You will have to argue against the resurrection of believers if you argue against the resurr. of unbelievers.
                          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                            Adam didn't die until he was 930 years old. Genesis 5:5
                            Adam died spiritually in the garden yet remained conscious. He died physically many centuries later.
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                              Hell isnt eternal torment, hell isnt eternal, and will be cast itself into the lake of fire, the word hell comes from is sheol and means the grave.
                              Hell means grave in some contexts (JWs say it always means common grave of man). It also refers to the abode of the lost awaiting the final lake of fire. It has a range of meaning depending on context.

                              You are generally right on this topic and Tim is wrong and misled on an important doctrine. Stand firm. Our view will stand up to scrutiny as popular as his view is to modern ears that are itching and like to be tickled.

                              Anti-hell is popular because people elevate the love of God above His holiness. Mercy and justice are equally true. The spirit in the image of God lives forever, like it or not. This necessitates two destinies. God is not unjust, but hell flows from His love.
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                                Matthew 25:46 Jesus states: "And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. The same Greek term, aionion (eternal), is used to describe both punishment and life.

                                There is NO reason to believe one is not eternal while the other one is, when the same word is used for BOTH.

                                Revelation 14:11 reads in part: "And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night."
                                The same adjective modifies the noun. He is rationalizing away and twisting the plain grammar. If punishment is not eternal, then neither is life eternal.

                                He complains if we do not have a verse that explicitly uses the phrase ECT. Yet, he will say it does not mean eternal punishment (just like 10 years punishment), but that it means the effects of the annihilation are forever, but the person is not. When a plain passage in Revelation says something, he plays the symbol card, yet cannot explain what it means other than what it says.

                                When Lk. 16 shows conscious suffering after death, he makes it figurative (making Jesus a false teacher) or assumes the effects are for a time, then cease (sheer inference, eisegesis).
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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