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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • I am calling you a deciever because you are deliberately using deception, pitting one scripture against another.

    In the parable of the rich man and dives he lifted up his eyes in torment, he was told there was a gulf set between him and the beggar which could not be passed over. Do you think Jesus was using a lie to teach the truth?
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
      I am calling you a deciever because you are deliberately using deception, pitting one scripture against another.

      In the parable of the rich man and dives he lifted up his eyes in torment, he was told there was a gulf set between him and the beggar which could not be passed over. Do you think Jesus was using a lie to teach the truth?
      I believe that Jesus used a parable to teach the truth.

      I am not pitting one scripture against another. All of those scriptures are true, you are just confused about this doctrine, because you have been misled.

      Now, I've asked you nicely to stop the name calling. This is your last warning. Also, you are spelling it wrong. It's deceiver, not deciever.

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      • Yes it is biblical, Jesus taught it.

        Luke 16:20-31

        King James Version (KJV)

        20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

        21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

        22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

        23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

        24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

        25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

        26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

        27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

        28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

        29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

        30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

        31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

        Jim Elliot

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        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
          I believe that Jesus used a parable to teach the truth.

          I am not pitting one scripture against another. All of those scriptures are true, you are just confused about this doctrine, because you have been misled.

          Now, I've asked you nicely to stop the name calling. This is your last warning. Also, you are spelling it wrong. It's deceiver, not deciever.
          Sorry, you are a deceiver not a deciever.
          One lavished upon in the Beloved
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          • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
            Yes it is biblical, Jesus taught it.

            Luke 16:20-31
            That's a parable, not a travel description of an actual place. Do you actually believe everyone goes to hell, and the good are separated from the bad by a canyon? Besides, this thread is about the final punishment, and the rich man's brothers were still alive, so this parable can't be about the final punishment. Also, this parable says nothing about eternal torment.


            I suggest that you go back over this thread, and read all of the scripture I posted in defense of my position. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tomented alive forever while they are dead. But there is a ton of scripture that supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is death.

            Thanks for posting on my thread.

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            • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
              Sorry, you are a deceiver not a deciever.
              I asked you to stop. I've reported you.

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              • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                That's a parable, not a travel description of an actual place. Do you actually believe everyone goes to hell, and the good are separated from the bad by a canyon? Besides, this thread is about the final punishment, and the rich man's brothers were still alive, so this parable can't be about the final punishment. Also, this parable says nothing about eternal torment.


                I suggest that you go back over this thread, and read all of the scripture I posted in defense of my position. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tomented alive forever while they are dead. But there is a ton of scripture that supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is death.

                Thanks for posting on my thread.
                You don't believe the parable? It's not a parable. Specific persons are named. Think you may want to look at Revelation 20:11-15

                Revelation 20:11-15

                King James Version (KJV)

                11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

                12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

                14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

                15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
                He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                Jim Elliot

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                • And the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice "if any man worship the beast and his image and recieve his mark on his forehead on in his hand the same shall drink of the wrath of God which is poured without mixture into the cup of His indignation. An he shall be tormented with fire an brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
                  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever recieveth the mark of his name.
                  One lavished upon in the Beloved
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                  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                    I asked you to stop. I've reported you.
                    So you want justice eh? revenge, what punishment should I have for telling the truth? and you a mere man....God has been outraged by murders and witchcraft these long centuries.
                    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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                    • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                      And the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice "if any man worship the beast and his image and recieve his mark on his forehead on in his hand the same shall drink of the wrath of God which is poured without mixture into the cup of His indignation. An he shall be tormented with fire an brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
                      And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever recieveth the mark of his name.
                      Say now that the bible does not say the wicked will not be tormented for ever and ever.
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                      • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                        Apology accepted, I'm glad we can put the playground arguments behind us. They just distract from the truth found in scripture.

                        Now, Jesus said that the way is wide that leads to destruction. This clearly means that Jesus believed that the result of sin is destruction, not eternal conscious torment. Jesus spoke of destruction in Gehenna, not eternal conscious torment in Gehenna. Do you see why I believe that there is destruction in Gehenna and not eternal conscious torment in Gehenna?
                        You need to do a word study on destruction and its use in various contexts. Words have a semantical range of meaning. You are hung up on one use. We need to formulate a doctrine based on all relevant verses. This supports ECT and is consistent with other legit uses of word destruction, punishment, torment, everlasting, etc.

                        I honestly believe your arguments have been refuted over and over and do not stand up to scrutiny. Your view is not new, but I believe it can be refuted.
                        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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                        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                          Do you usually use passages from the Apocalyptic Book of Revelation to interpret all other scripture? Since Revelation says that Jesus was a lamb, do you interpret all of the gospels that way? Mary gave birth to a lamb in a manger? John baptized a lamb in the Jordan River? Pontius Pilate had a lamb crucified? If this sounds ridiculous, it is. But it is the same thing you are doing. Read John 3:16 and tell me about those who do not believe in the Son of God. It says that they perish. Read Matthew 7:13 and tell me where the wide road leads. To destruction, not eternal conscious torment in hell. Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what the wages of sin is. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they pay the penalty of eternal destruction. Jude and Peter say that the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah is an example of the coming destruction for those who reject God. Even Revelation tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. It is death, not eternal conscious torment.

                          You are taking one out of context prooftext from a book that is full of symbolism and you are using that one verse to trump all of the rest of scripture. That is not sound exegesis.
                          We recognize figurative language when the context demands it. The reality is better/worse than the symbol. Revelation should be interpreted with a normative, literal approach, but we recognize more symbolism, etc. You cannot dismiss its face value teachings when they disagree with by dismissing the whole genre. Much of Revelation can and should be interpreted literally. We also see limited allegory, etc. elsewhere, but we do not dismiss historical narrative in the majority of books just because there is isolated figurative language.
                          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                            But my view is the same as Jesus Christ's who said in Luke 13:3
                            I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

                            He didn't say 'unless you repent you will will be burned alive in hell forever after you die'.
                            Begging the question....you are assuming a definition and assuming it has only one meaning. You are arguing like God is not trinity since the Bible says God, not trinity? We can establish trinity from the cumulative evidence without the literal word just as we can establish ECT without the exact phrase (perish/destruction can fit either view, as you have been shown; you are selective in what evidence you keep vs throw out).
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                              Ezekiel 18:4 says "the soul who sins will die". It doesn't say "the soul who sins will be tormented alive forever in hell while it is dead."
                              Death is separation, not cessation. You again assume a flawed understanding of death and beg the question. D.A Carson would not be pleased with you for misapplying his good understanding of fallacies.
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                                I asked you to stop. I've reported you.
                                M.O.

                                Lk. 16 is not a parable. Even if it is, it would still not teach false doctrine. It supports our view, not yours. Your exegesis is flawed as is your theology on this point.

                                I think we should report you
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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