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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
    Wrong. Those who are destroyed are not resting. They have been destroyed, which is absolutely different from resting.
    They are described as having no rest. Their torment must continue forever in order for the smoke of their torment to be seen ascending forever. Are you reading or just denying what it says?
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    • The smoke of their torment - Still an allusion to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha.

      from Clarke's commentary on the Bible.

      Yes, I am aware that Barnes believes in ECT. That is what makes him an effective witness for my side. If those who agree with you don't even agree with you on this passage...

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      • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
        2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the penalty is destruction.
        In order for them to continually be destroyed forever, they must be tormented by that destruction forever. They are not non-existent, or God would have never said anything about their torment continuing forever. He knows what will happen. Take His Word for it, rather than trying to defend what you imagine might happen.
        "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

        If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
          The smoke of their torment - Still an allusion to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha.

          from Clarke's commentary on the Bible.

          Yes, I am aware that Barnes believes in ECT. That is what makes him an effective witness for my side. If those who agree with you don't even agree with you on this passage...
          If you want to find two people who agree on every Scripture, you'll have to go to Heaven... there are no two on this earth who agree on the meaning of every Scripture. If they do, they're simple-minded. God designed His Word to cause contention. He wants us to talk about His Word and make Him ever more famous.
          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
            They are described as having no rest. Their torment must continue forever in order for the smoke of their torment to be seen ascending forever. Are you reading or just denying what it says?

            I do not grab my doctrine from the BOR and then force that doctrine onto the rest of the Bible, and you should not either.
            Clear passages of the Bible should be used to interpret unclear passages, not the other way around. We've been in the BOR long enough. Can you defend your doctrine using the other 65 books of the Bible? Or better still, why not read the other 65 books first and then determine your doctrine from them?

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            • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
              If you want to find two people who agree on every Scripture, you'll have to go to Heaven... there are no two on this earth who agree on the meaning of every Scripture. If they do, they're simple-minded. God designed His Word to cause contention. He wants us to talk about His Word and make Him ever more famous.
              That's true, it seems like no two people interpret the BOR the same way, which is why it is important to not derive your doctrine solely from the BOR.

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              • Ezekiel 18:4 says "the soul who sins will die". It doesn't say "the soul who sins will be tormented alive forever in hell while it is dead."

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                • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                  But my view is the same as Jesus Christ's who said in Luke 13:3
                  I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

                  He didn't say 'unless you repent you will will be burned alive in hell forever after you die'.
                  I say unto you My friends be not afraid of them that kill the body and after that hath no more that they can do. But I will tell you who to fear, fear Him which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you fear Him.
                  One lavished upon in the Beloved
                  sigpic

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                  • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                    I say unto you My friends be not afraid of them that kill the body and after that hath no more that they can do. But I will tell you who to fear, fear Him which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you fear Him.
                    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna) Matthew 10:28

                    This shows what happens to those who are cast into hell (Gehenna), Body and Soul are destroyed there. They are not kept alive forever in torment.

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                    • You can't take Matt. 10.28 and pit it against Lu. 12.5. that is the tactics of the deciever.
                      One lavished upon in the Beloved
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                      • There are so many verses in the Bible that tell us the fate of the wicked is to perish, not live forever in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead.
                        Take John 3:16, probably the most familiar verse in the Bible:
                        For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
                        So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

                        Since there are so many verses that all say the wicked perish, and there aren't any verses in the Bible that say the wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead, why don't you guys believe what the Bible says, instead of arguing against it?

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                        • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                          You can't take Matt. 10.28 and pit it against Lu. 12.5. that is the tactics of the deciever.
                          I'm not, I'm saying they agree. If YOU think they disagree, then you have a problem with your doctrine. The problem is - your doctrine is false.

                          Read Matthew 10:28, it says that Body and Soul can be destroyed in hell. Read Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

                          Matthew 10:28 tells you exactly why you should fear him. Because he has teh power to destroy both body and soul in hell. These verses work together to say the same thing. I am not pitting one verse against another. I believe both. You don't.

                          Why don't you give up your false doctrine of ECT and just believe what the Bible says?

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                          • In John 5:24, Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." He didn't say the penalty was eternal life in torment. He said whoever believes him has passed from DEATH to LIFE. There are two choices, according to Jesus Christ, Death or Life. Not Life and life in hell being tormented.

                            Why don't you give up your false doctrine of ECT and just believe what Jesus Christ said?

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                            • You can't take Jo.5.24. and pit it against Lu.12, 5 or Mtt. 25. where the wicked depart into everlasting punishment. If you use scripture like that you are a deciever.
                              One lavished upon in the Beloved
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                              • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                                You can't take Jo.5.24. and pit it against Lu.12, 5 or Mtt. 25. where the wicked depart into everlasting punishment. If you use scripture like that you are a deciever.
                                I'm not pitting scriptures against each other. Matthew 25:46 says they go to eternal punishment. I believe that they do. Death is a form of punishment and it is eternal. Matthew 25:46 doesn't say they go off to eternal torment. All of these verses work together to prove that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.

                                Please stop calling me a deceiver. Obviously I'm not a deceiver, that is mere name calling, and doesn't prove anything.

                                More scripture!
                                Hebrews 10:26-27,
                                For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
                                Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

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