do the have eternal life?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
do the have eternal life?
That's sheer nonsense, something a 10 year old might come up with.
When you die you are then pure spirit as angels are. They do not exist in the physical realm.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Thanks. I love compliments.
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
I only hope that one day you are converted.
I wouldn't hazard a guess.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Nope. They have eternal torment. They do not have growth. They do not have light. They do not have anything but pain and regret.
so you don't know what the second death is
but
you know what the lake of fire is
how is that?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Nope. They have eternal torment. They do not have growth. They do not have light. They do not have anything but pain and regret. How do you tell something is alive? It moves. It grows. It reproduces. It expands. It interacts with other living things. There is none of that in the Lake of Fire. There is no contact with others. There is no movement. There is no growth. There is no interaction. There is darkness. There is fire. There is pain, only.
Hell is the State of Those who Reject God
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At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that "hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself... Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".
1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life "hell".
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of their life.
Hell is a state of eternal damnation
2. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).
The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.
Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged "by what they [have done]" (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will "weep and gnash their teeth" (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its "unquenchable fire" (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a "pool of fire" those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a "second death" (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).
3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life andjoy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell'" (n. 1033).
"Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state.
We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
4. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying "yes" or "no", which marks the human creature's freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God's love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a "yes" to God.
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry "Abba, Father!" (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: "Father, accept this offering from your whole family ... save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen".
To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors, the Holy Father said.
I am pleased to greet the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors present at today's audience, especially those from England, Scotland, Nigeria, Hong Kong and the United States of America. I wish you a pleasant visit to Christian Rome and I invoke upon you the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I know what the Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit, teaches.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Why do you say that? Because you cannot see angels? They are not spooky ghosty things, simply because Hollywood has portrayed them that way. They exist. They are physical, and yet beyond our comprehension. Their reality is above us not beneath us. They are more real than we are. The physical is a tiny little portrayal of the spiritual, not the other way around. There is more to existence in the spirit realm than there is in ours, not the other way around. There is more color. There is more reality. There is more depth. There is more height. There is much more available knowledge-wise...
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Thinking that spirit is some wispy thing made of protoplasm like in Ghostbusters is foolish. Spirit is what God is. He is above what we are. Jesus came and visited the apostles AFTER He was glorified. He ate fish with them. He had physical form. Believing what your religion has dumped on you is silly. God is beyond what men have imagined He is. He is bigger than physical, not smaller. Hell exists, and so does Heaven.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The RCC isn't 'the' church. The church is The Body of Christ. No one denomination is 'approved' by Him. The RCC is the great whore of revelation. You need to buy a clue.
what did the Church teach you about the second death?
You tell me. You're a Catholic. Did a Catholic ever teach you that hell is NOT eternal? What point are you trying to make with your questions. Cut to the chase man, don't beat around the bush.
According to the Bible the wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23), not eternal conscious torment. There are only two possible outcomes, eternal life with Christ or no eternal life with Christ, in a word - Death.
According to the Bible, those who believe in the Son of God will not perish but they will have eternal life (see John 3:16). There are only two possible outcomes, eternal life with Christ or perishing without Christ, again, the term for this is death. Death is really death, it is not eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever.
how can you have eternal suffering without eternal life?
If punishment is not eternal/everlasting, then neither is life eternal/everlasting (grammatically in Jesus verse).
'Eternal life' can refer to the quality of life for believers with God.
All men in the image of God have an everlasting spirit and future bodily resurrection (not to be confused with Platonic ideas of inherent immortality of the soul with body being bad).
Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36 necessitates two destinies for this creation that God will not destroy.
Inclusivism, annihilationism, pluralism, etc. are false views. The everlasting nature of man, conscious, everlasting separation of the lost, etc. are the biblical, historical, orthodox views.
why can't we say eternal punishment is not eternal life?
we can't? :noid:
These words and phrases have a semantical range of meaning depending on context. Say what you want, but define what you mean for clarification. Punishment and life with God are both forever.
where does it say suffering?
punishment is not suffering
punishment is not suffering