Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rightglory]

The question from the beginning of this thread is "Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?"

The question is not "Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment what the Orthodox Church believes or not?"

It is biblical. Has been biblical from the beginning. There have been several false teachings regarding it, but they have all been declared heretical.

As is common among all sola scripturist, they must first diminish, ignore the actual truth. For how could a false supposition stand, if the Truth says otherwise. Your statement clearly ignores history, the Gospel, even scripture as having been given by the Holy Spirit.

Please stick to the topic, Is ECT Biblical or not. Does the Bible support ECT? Which verses support ECT the best, if you believe ECT is Biblical.

already covered

I don't care what you believe. This is a discussion, and anyone can state their opinion. I have not changed the meaning of "death" as you claim. The definition of death is "the end of life". If you believe that death means something other than that, I am interesting in hearing your proof. I have heard people say "death means separation". I haven't seen any proof of that. You are welcome to look up death in a dictionary and see if I have changed the meaning of death. Let me know what you find.

I don't disagree with your definition apart from scripture. But when you insert it incorrectly in scripture as is the example of John 6:23, then you have changed the meaning of the words, since the Biblical context says otherwise.
As to texts I have already given them. All the way from the purpose of man's creation, Christ's reconciliation of all things, to the immortality of all men through Christ's resurrection. I have cited specific texts that show that those appointed to hell will suffer, everlastingly, or from ages to ages. You read them and appropriately denied their meaning in scripture.

Since you are relying on only opinion, which is the only foundation all sola scripturist operate from, I will change my facts to opinion. Now we have come to a point where my opinion has the same weight as your opinion. What you say is as true as what I say. So, both meanings are biblical. So, now what?

You go your way with your interpretation, and I go my way with my interpretation and scripture has yet produced at least two more doctrines, even though opposite.

For all we know, scripture might actually have a different meaning, but we both have disagreed with it.

Just to give you some examples, within the same realm of this topic. we have such teachings as Universalism, soul sleep, the two under discussion, annhilationism, and conditional immortality all are based on scripture.

On the basis of the sola scriptura principle, they are all biblical, thus all of equal weight.
You are trying to establish what scripture means by a method that has no authority except ones opinion. Using your method, you could not possibly refute any of the above theories.

Historically within the sola scriptura milieu all of these opinions resulted in another denomination or group which is based on a particular theory/interpretation.

The best you can muster is to say this is my interpretation and is what I believe. What scripture actually means is of no relevance.

 

[Timotheos]

The best you can muster is to say this is my interpretation and is what I believe.

Okay, This is what I believe:
The soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4) for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23), all who believe in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life (John 3:16).

Peace

 

[Rightglory]

Okay, This is what I believe:
The soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4) for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23), all who believe in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life (John 3:16).

Peace

and keeping it in the realm of opinion, I believe the opposite. (note, I believe precisely what that text says)

The bottom line is that we have not shown what scripture means.
All we have shown is what each believes of his own interpretation/opinion.

 

[Timotheos]

and keeping it in the realm of opinion, I believe the opposite. (note, I believe precisely what that text says)

The bottom line is that we have not shown what scripture means.
All we have shown is what each believes of his own interpretation/opinion.

You believe the opposite of this:
"The soul who sins shall die for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, all who believe in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life"

AND you believe precisely what it says? AND the opposite of what it says?
Okay, you are entitled to your opinions.

God bless you.

 

[serpentdove]

[Babies] ...[G]iven the time and opportunity to sin; they will sin. They inherited a sin nature from their parents (Ps 51:5).

Pakistani baby accused of attempted murder :think:

 

[freelight]

spiritual progress................

spiritual progress................

an identifier of retards :thumb:

I think 'spiritual retardation' is a good thing to prevent or work against





pj

 

[meshak]

:
Originally Posted by Resurrected
I'll enjoy watching you burn Rusha

Hey res,

You need to stop this kind of comment. You are only discrediting yourself, friend.

BTW, you know Rusha hates me. But I will not lower myself commenting like this. It is not Christian like.

 

[Aimiel]

I believe we shall dance and rejoice over God's judgments... everything He does is Holy.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Ben Masada]

It is not Christian like.

What is to be Christian like Meshak? Care to elaborate?

 

[resurrected]

Hey res,

You need to stop this kind of comment. You are only discrediting yourself, friend.

BTW, you know Rusha hates me. But I will not lower myself commenting like this. It is not Christian like.

I believe we shall dance and rejoice over God's judgments... everything He does is Holy.

Posted from the TOL App!

what aimiel said :thumb:



except for that tol app part :noid:

 

[meshak]

What is to be Christian like Meshak? Care to elaborate?

Ok, I change to Christ like.

Do you still need elaboration?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Ok, I change to Christ like.

Do you still need elaboration?

He is asking you what you think Christ like means.

 

[Aimiel]

Aww... =( Now he can't answer... he's banned.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Hell There Is!
A "Catholic Answers" Tract
source link

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show........<SNIP>

Click HERE to see early Church fathers quotes

 

[Aimiel]

Death is the last enemy which will be placed under His Feet. Death is a spirit. People don't have a hard time accepting that fact, since the hooded skeletal figure is a character in many movies, indeed even the star of many; but, Hell is also a spirit. Why else would they need to be tormented?

Revelation 20:14
And Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

They are God's enemies. The spirit of Death is placed at Jesus' Feet:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The spirit of Hell will also be punished, just as Death will be. The ones who resist and fight both spirits are the ones who will not be touched by either.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The reason Hell is eternal is because our spirits are eternal (or I should say immortal), so wherever we end up is where we will be for all eternity.

Out spirits will live forever, so we will forever either be in union with God or separated from God.

And as a side note, Hell, like Heaven, is not a physical place either. Hell & Heaven are in the spiritual realm. They are not physical places.

"Heaven" is union with God.
"Hell" is separation from God.

But Hell IS eternal because your soul is immortal, and Hell IS eternal punishment. Scripture PROVES that.

 

[Aimiel]

Hell is a physical prison. It is beneath, just as Heaven is above. It is spiritual, but spirits are real, they're just operating beyond our comprehension. Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is for eternity. Then there will be a new Heaven and a new earth.

 

[chrysostom]

But Hell IS eternal because your souls is immortal, and Hell IS eternal punishment. Scripture PROVES that.

so what do you think the second death is?

 

[fishrovmen]

What difference would it make if the fire is never quenched, and the worm doesn't die, if no one will be concious to experience them?

 

[Aimiel]

People in hell are conscious. They experience torment for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You can't have smoke from torment ascend for ever and ever unless there is still torment taking place. Eventually it would dissipate if the torment ended. Do the math.