Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
    48

    And apparently, I know more than you.
    Humble apologies. You know more about me on your conditional view. I apparently know more of the Bible in context than you.

    Humble apologies for the age thing. However, maturity is not dependent on chronological age. At least you are not old and senile like me (52).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
      Lazarus was not in torment.
      They were conscious in the after life. Jesus does not teach false things, but spiritual truth/reality (whether metaphor or not).
      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
        I'm sorry, I'm rather new. I didn't know reporting bad behavior was against the rules. Usually people who want to get away with stuff don't like it when you report them. It wasn't crybaby at all. Name calling (ie crybaby) just shows that you can't defend your position using logic and scripture. I'm sure that you are too mature to engage in childish namecalling.
        You are not a moderator. You also misunderstood what I was saying and did not factor in the proximal clarification posts that take away perceived grounds of offense.
        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
          Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?
          Obviously ECT is true:

          Revelation 14:11
          And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

          The smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. In order to have smoke: you have to have torment. For there to be torment, someone has to be conscious. Obviously they will be tormented in flames for eternity.
          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
            "Logic" doesn't really have anything to do with it.
            If you want to simply rely on logic, would it not be logical for a God of justice and mercy to forgive and fix everyone, rather than just some and not others?

            Then you are going to have to reject much of the bible.
            For God did many things that seem illogical to our limited view of what real logic is.

            One instance is the healing of Naaman (2 Kings 5).
            Naaman had leprosy.
            He was told to wash in the Jordan River 7 times.
            There was no logic to that, and he even questioned the logic of it because there were several bodies of water closer than the Jordan River.
            Why did it have to be the Jordan River, and why 7 times?

            And yet, he did it just the way he was told, and was healed.

            If washing in the Jordan River had any "logical" reason to heal leprosy, then every leper in the country would have done it and been healed, and there would have been no more lepers in the country.

            While puny little man likes to think he has the right to question God's logic, he can't really even fathom the logic of God's ways.

            Best to just believe what God says, and leave the logic up to Him. He's much better at it!
            I was merely questioning the logic of a person assuming that name calling proved anything. My position stands solidly on scripture. I wasn't questioning God's logic. Jesus said that the body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna, but the other side questions him on this and thinks that the soul will not be destroyed in Gehenna. And the "proof" they offer for this? "Tim is a heretic, Tim is like a JW, Tim is like a SDA, and Tim is a crybaby if he reports what we call him."

            Someone has said that you are intelligent, so why don't we forget the playground talk and just discuss this like inteligent people. I do believe what God says. I don't believe what "Godrulz" says. He is not really God.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
              Ummm, because some people claim that God sends his enemies to a torture pit and keeps them alive there being tortured (I call it like I see it) forever and ever. Why does a lamp focus light in the dark places? To expose the error that lies hidden in the dark. Yes, let's forget this false doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell and focus on the Light of the world who came to rescue us from death and give us eternal life. Bless you Ktoyou, God willing we will move on from this present darkness into the light of God's truth. But as long as people are trapped in this dark pit of error, people like you and I need to shine a light in and show them the way out.
              It is YOU who are stuck in morbidity, for th most part we are rejoicing n the One who has saved us. All you can talk about is hell.
              One lavished upon in the Beloved
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                Humble apologies.
                Apology accepted, I'm glad we can put the playground arguments behind us. They just distract from the truth found in scripture.

                Now, Jesus said that the way is wide that leads to destruction. This clearly means that Jesus believed that the result of sin is destruction, not eternal conscious torment. Jesus spoke of destruction in Gehenna, not eternal conscious torment in Gehenna. Do you see why I believe that there is destruction in Gehenna and not eternal conscious torment in Gehenna?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                  It is YOU who are stuck in morbidity, for th most part we are rejoicing n the One who has saved us. All you can talk about is hell.
                  Bless you, I can see why you think that.

                  But, in my defense the reason all I want to talk about on this thread is hell is that is the topic of this thread. Did you see the Thread Title before you posted? "IS THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT BIBLICAL OR NOT?" Did you think we would be talking about daisy fields here? I agree that it is morbid for people to assume that God set up a place of eternal torture and sends people there. That is why I point out the scripture that says otherwise, and that's why I point out that the scriptures that people claim as proof of ECT do not actually prove ECT.

                  If you want to talk about something else, there are a few other threads on TOL where you can. If you can't find one, you could always start your own thread.

                  Comment


                  • You can't use one or even one hundred scriptures in order to disprove other scriptures which make you cry, that is an unlawful use of scripture.

                    What place in heaven could the wicked have? if even talking about Jesus makes them angry now how will they feel in His presence?

                    Best place for them is hell.
                    One lavished upon in the Beloved
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • What kindness God has, what love for us to create the sun, to reject God is to reject His kindness and His gifts....who is sending them?
                      One lavished upon in the Beloved
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • In hell they can seethe in their anger and hate as much as they want to...salted with fire.
                        One lavished upon in the Beloved
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                          Obviously ECT is true:

                          Revelation 14:11
                          And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

                          The smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. In order to have smoke: you have to have torment. For there to be torment, someone has to be conscious. Obviously they will be tormented in flames for eternity.
                          Do you usually use passages from the Apocalyptic Book of Revelation to interpret all other scripture? Since Revelation says that Jesus was a lamb, do you interpret all of the gospels that way? Mary gave birth to a lamb in a manger? John baptized a lamb in the Jordan River? Pontius Pilate had a lamb crucified? If this sounds ridiculous, it is. But it is the same thing you are doing. Read John 3:16 and tell me about those who do not believe in the Son of God. It says that they perish. Read Matthew 7:13 and tell me where the wide road leads. To destruction, not eternal conscious torment in hell. Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what the wages of sin is. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they pay the penalty of eternal destruction. Jude and Peter say that the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah is an example of the coming destruction for those who reject God. Even Revelation tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. It is death, not eternal conscious torment.

                          You are taking one out of context prooftext from a book that is full of symbolism and you are using that one verse to trump all of the rest of scripture. That is not sound exegesis.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                            You can't use one or even one hundred scriptures in order to disprove other scriptures which make you cry, that is an unlawful use of scripture.

                            What place in heaven could the wicked have? if even talking about Jesus makes them angry now how will they feel in His presence?

                            Best place for them is hell.
                            I thought you didn't want to talk about hell?
                            I never said the wicked go to heaven when they die. I agree with what the Bible says. The wicked perish (Psalm 37:20) and the wicked will be no more (Psalm 37:10).

                            I don't use scripture to disprove other scripture. All of scripture agrees that the wicked are destroyed, and there will be no more wickedness. You can't use one scripture and use it to disprove all of the rest of scripture. That is an unlawful use of scripture. I am just reading scripture and pointing out what it says. The Bible (Matthew 3:12) says the chaff is burned up. Scripture does not say that the chaff burns forever and is never burnt up.

                            I've given you some of the scripture that proves what I am saying is true, there is much more. But you haven't given any scripture that shows the wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead. I know that this is something different than you always thought was true, but what does the Bible actually say? Does it say that the penalty for sin is death? Or does it say the penalty for sin is eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says the wages of sin is.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                              You are taking one out of context prooftext from a book that is full of symbolism and you are using that one verse to trump all of the rest of scripture. That is not sound exegesis.
                              Yet we use the book of Revelation to help us believe that in the end: God wins. The New Heaven and The New Earth give us solace, in that we know our God holds the future. We know from what Jesus said that Heaven is real. We also know from what Jesus said that hell is real. He described the rich man in hell and told us that there was no relief from his torments. The facts stated in Revelation are facts, even though the book is rich with symbolism. We know (in part) that what is described will take place. We know (in part) that Jesus is The Door, The Lamb, The Way, The Truth, The Life and The Only Eternal Life; and yet we do not get confused and follow strangers. We also know that hell and eternal conscious torment is real and so we don't have to believe those who come along to try to tell us it is merely symbolic.
                              "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                              If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                              Comment


                              • Are you more knowledgable than Christ? He said these will depart into everlasting punishment.

                                Do you love sinners? have you given your life, your blood for them? will comforting them in their rebellion against God help them? surely you are easing them on their way to hell. Will God thank you for that?
                                One lavished upon in the Beloved
                                sigpic

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X