God, Free Will, And A Strawberry Ice Cream Cone

JAGG

New member
JAGG Writes:
How does God simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} often working in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
and controls the external circumstances in such a way
where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

Let me give you one example where you could do that
same thing with your son {assume you have an 8 year
old son}

A Father & Son & A Strawberry
Ice Cream Cone . . .
Let us say that you decide that your 8 year old son will
eat a strawberry ice cream cone this coming Wednesday
around 12 noon.

His favorite flavor is chocolate and strawberry is only his
2nd favorite flavor.

Remember that you are ONLY going to control the external
circumstances and the "outside inducements" -- you are NOT
going to Force your son to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.

~ the external circumstances , , ,
~ the "outside inducements" , , ,



You CAN Control . . .
The "External Circumstances"
And
The "Outside Inducements" . . .
{1} On Wednesday morning you make certain that there is no
breakfast available so that your son will be hungry come
lunch time.

{2| You can control the place where you and your son go that
day.

{3} You select a Park Area that has an ice cream stand.

{4} On Tuesday you arrange with the Ice Cream Stand's
owner for him NOT to have any chocolate ice cream available,
and for him to certainly have Strawberry Ice Cream available
when you and your son arrive at the park area at around 12 noon.

{5} When you and your son arrive at the park, your son tells
you he is hungry and wants an ice cream cone.

{6} You take your son to the ice cream stand.

{7} Your son is told there is no chocolate ice cream available.

{8} Your son asks if there is strawberry ice cream available.

{9} Your son is told yes there is strawberry ice cream available.

{10} Your son, now really hungry, and preferring chocolate ice cream,
nonetheless, gladly "settles for" his 2nd favorite strawberry flavor,
and asks for and eats the strawberry ice cream cone.

So?

So your son did EXACTLY what you had planned for him to do
and at the same time you DID NOT violate your son's Free Will.

Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

You did not urge him to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.
You did not say a single word to him about it.
You merely controlled the external circumstances and you
put the "outside inducement" of the strawberry ice cream
cone in front of him -- by making sure that he would be told
that the strawberry ice cram was available for him if he wanted
it.

Your son made a 100% Free Will decision to eat the strawberry
ice cream cone.

_________

That up there is one example of how the Sovereign God can control
the external circumstances and the "outside inducements" in such a
way where men end up doing what he has predetermined them to
do --- while at the same time -- their Free Will is not violated.

_________

I realize that my example and illustration of the "Father & Son & Strawberry
Ice Cream Cone" is not a perfect example or illustration --- but it does succeed
in demonstrating how a Father can control the external circumstances and the
"outside inducements" to bring about a good predetermined plan and at the same
time, NOT violate his son's Free Will.

___________

What is the takeaway point of the OP?
Answer: It demonstrates one way in which God can simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} often working good things in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
and controls the external circumstances in such a way
where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

Let us all strive to make good Free Will choices and trust in
God to help us as we do that and to bring good things into
our lives.

JAGG
 

beloved57

Well-known member
jagg

Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

No wrong, not if His Father is God and had already predetermined he will eat the strawberry icecream !
 

Lon

Well-known member
Spoiler
JAGG Writes:
How does God simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} often working in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
and controls the external circumstances in such a way
where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

Let me give you one example where you could do that
same thing with your son {assume you have an 8 year
old son}
A Father & Son & A Strawberry
Ice Cream Cone . . .
Let us say that you decide that your 8 year old son will
eat a strawberry ice cream cone this coming Wednesday
around 12 noon.

His favorite flavor is chocolate and strawberry is only his
2nd favorite flavor.

Remember that you are ONLY going to control the external
circumstances and the "outside inducements" -- you are NOT
going to Force your son to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.

~ the external circumstances , , ,
~ the "outside inducements" , , ,




You CAN Control . . .
The "External Circumstances"
And
The "Outside Inducements" . . .
{1} On Wednesday morning you make certain that there is no
breakfast available so that your son will be hungry come
lunch time.

{2| You can control the place where you and your son go that
day.

{3} You select a Park Area that has an ice cream stand.

{4} On Tuesday you arrange with the Ice Cream Stand's
owner for him NOT to have any chocolate ice cream available,
and for him to certainly have Strawberry Ice Cream available
when you and your son arrive at the park area at around 12 noon.

{5} When you and your son arrive at the park, your son tells
you he is hungry and wants an ice cream cone.

{6} You take your son to the ice cream stand.

{7} Your son is told there is no chocolate ice cream available.

{8} Your son asks if there is strawberry ice cream available.

{9} Your son is told yes there is strawberry ice cream available.

{10} Your son, now really hungry, and preferring chocolate ice cream,
nonetheless, gladly "settles for" his 2nd favorite strawberry flavor,
and asks for and eats the strawberry ice cream cone.

So?

So your son did EXACTLY what you had planned for him to do
and at the same time you DID NOT violate your son's Free Will.

Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

You did not urge him to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.
You did not say a single word to him about it.
You merely controlled the external circumstances and you
put the "outside inducement" of the strawberry ice cream
cone in front of him -- by making sure that he would be told
that the strawberry ice cram was available for him if he wanted
it.

Your son made a 100% Free Will decision to eat the strawberry
ice cream cone.

_________

That up there is one example of how the Sovereign God can control
the external circumstances and the "outside inducements" in such a
way where men end up doing what he has predetermined them to
do --- while at the same time -- their Free Will is not violated.

_________

I realize that my example and illustration of the "Father & Son & Strawberry
Ice Cream Cone" is not a perfect example or illustration --- but it does succeed
in demonstrating how a Father can control the external circumstances and the
"outside inducements" to bring about a good predetermined plan and at the same
time, NOT violate his son's Free Will.

___________


What is the takeaway point of the OP?
Answer: It demonstrates one way in which God can simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} often working good things in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
and controls the external circumstances in such a way
where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

Let us all strive to make good Free Will choices and trust in
God to help us as we do that and to bring good things into
our lives.

JAGG

Two cents:

1 ¢ I don't like the term 'free' will but a 'culpable' will, which is, in some qualification 'free' but 'free' is a huge can of worms that is very difficult to define where no two persons alike mean the same thing. Perhaps in commanding "do not eat" and putting the two in the Garden, God made man in some sense 'free' but prohibitions aren't best understood in the sense of freedom, but also as the restriction which is needed and necessary if ever 'free' is to have good theological meaning and strong spiritual implication.

¢ # 2 I do believe your example demonstrates one way in which sovereignty and choice work. We are very much creatures of habit. You can bet your bottom dollar, every time, I'll choose Strawberry over chocolate and you'd be wise to offer me vanilla over strawberry as well. If you ONLY offered me vanilla, you've not, in fact, erased my freewill, but accentuated it. It is as clear as that. No one thinking this through, is going to think their will is violated when you give them what they want. Further, no Christian is going to cry foul if the God of the Universe gives them what He desires over their own will, as the Son offered: "Not my will, but Thine" and "Thy will be done."
 

JAGG

New member
jagg

No wrong, not if His Father is God and had already predetermined
he will eat the strawberry icecream !

BOTH Free Will , , AND , , the Sovereignty Of God are clearly taught in the Holy Bible.
There is no contradiction in the two.

By the way, in my story the Father HAD in fact already determined that his son
would eat the Strawberry Ice Cream Cone.

Thanks for your comment, Beloved.

Best.

JAGG

``
 

JAGG

New member
Two cents:

1 ¢ I don't like the term 'free' will but a 'culpable' will, which is, in some qualification 'free' but 'free' is a huge can of worms that is very difficult to define where no two persons alike mean the same thing. Perhaps in commanding "do not eat" and putting the two in the Garden, God made man in some sense 'free' but prohibitions aren't best understood in the sense of freedom, but also as the restriction which is needed and necessary if ever 'free' is to have good theological meaning and strong spiritual implication.

¢ # 2 I do believe your example demonstrates one way in which sovereignty and choice work. We are very much creatures of habit. You can bet your bottom dollar, every time, I'll choose Strawberry over chocolate and you'd be wise to offer me vanilla over strawberry as well. If you ONLY offered me vanilla, you've not, in fact, erased my freewill, but accentuated it. It is as clear as that. No one thinking this through, is going to think their will is violated when you give them what they want. Further, no Christian is going to cry foul if the God of the Universe gives them what He desires over their own will, as the Son offered: "Not my will, but Thine" and "Thy will be done."

Thanks for your comment Lon.
Be back tomorrow to respond.

Best.

JAGG
 

beloved57

Well-known member
BOTH Free Will , , AND , , the Sovereignty Of God are clearly taught in the Holy Bible.
There is no contradiction in the two.

By the way, in my story the Father HAD in fact already determined that his son
would eat the Strawberry Ice Cream Cone.

Thanks for your comment, Beloved.

Best.

JAGG

``

The bible never teaches man has a freewill. Nobodys will is free from the Sovereign purpose of God ! Eph 1:11


11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

See all things, to include mans withh, works after the counsel of His Own will.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
jagg



No wrong, not if His Father is God and had already predetermined he will eat the strawberry icecream !
There's no contradiction between Jagg's idea and God's absolute and exhaustive sovereignty.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
There's no contradiction between Jagg's idea and God's absolute and exhaustive sovereignty.

Yes it is. He wrote

Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

The sons choice could only choose what God had decided for him to chose !

God turns men hearts to conform to His intentions and purposes Prov 21:1

The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water:
he turneth it whithersoever he will.

This compliments what I just posted which obviously you ignored Eph 1:11

11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 

JAGG

New member
Idolater

beloved57

Lon

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom
you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
___Joshua 24:15

Thank all of you for your comments and for reading
my OP. I appreciate that.

I'm not in the frame of mind right now to argue about
the definitions of words. If anyone does not like the
phrase "Free Will" they can pick another word or
phrase they like better.

How about the phrase "choose for yourselves" in
Joshua 24:15? That's a word for word Biblical phrase
and that seems crystal clear to me.
The people hearing Joshua had a simple choice:
{1} choose to serve the Lord
{2} choose NOT to serve the Lord
That is not complicated.

Neither is the way the entire Bible is written which
constantly , , ,constantly , , , calls on the readers to
use their will to choose. Again if you don't like the
word "free" then get rid of it and just use the word
"will." If you don't like the word "will" then get rid of
it and just use the Biblical word "choose" as presented
in Joshua 24:15.

When we read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 -- the great
New Testament Love chapter we are called upon to
"choose" to practice Love. Is that true of false?
That is obviously True and NOT False.

Did Paul write 1 Corinthians chapter 13 merely for us
to read without us making a decision to "choose" to
practice Love? No he did not. We all know he did not
do that. He wrote wanting his readers to "choose" to
put those principles of Love into daily action.

So if we do not have "Free Will" then we do have "choose."
"Choose for yourselves."

Then we have the hundreds , , maybe thousands , , of clear
bold instances in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation that
are written in such a way that it is clear and obvious that we
have to "choose."

One example among at least hundreds is Revelation 3:20

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my
voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person,
and they with me."___The Lord Jesus
The reader is called upon to make a choice {to choose}
{1} open the door
or
{2} refuse to open the door

How about John 7:17 ?


"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
find out whether my teaching comes from God
or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
John 7:17
{1} choose to do God will
{2} choose not to do God's will



Best.

JAGG
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Idolater

beloved57

Lon

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom
you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
___Joshua 24:15

Thank all of you for your comments and for reading
my OP. I appreciate that.

I'm not in the frame of mind right now to argue about
the definitions of words. If anyone does not like the
phrase "Free Will" they can pick another word or
phrase they like better.

How about the phrase "choose for yourselves" in
Joshua 24:15? That's a word for word Biblical phrase
and that seems crystal clear to me.
The people hearing Joshua had a simple choice:
{1} choose to serve the Lord
{2} choose NOT to serve the Lord
That is not complicated.

Neither is the way the entire Bible is written which
constantly , , ,constantly , , , calls on the readers to
use their will to choose. Again if you don't like the
word "free" then get rid of it and just use the word
"will." If you don't like the word "will" then get rid of
it and just use the Biblical word "choose" as presented
in Joshua 24:15.

When we read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 -- the great
New Testament Love chapter we are called upon to
"choose" to practice Love. Is that true of false?
That is obviously True and NOT False.

Did Paul write 1 Corinthians chapter 13 merely for us
to read without us making a decision to "choose" to
practice Love? No he did not. We all know he did not
do that. He wrote wanting his readers to "choose" to
put those principles of Love into daily action.

So if we do not have "Free Will" then we do have "choose."
"Choose for yourselves."

Then we have the hundreds , , maybe thousands , , of clear
bold instances in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation that
are written in such a way that it is clear and obvious that we
have to "choose."

One example among at least hundreds is Revelation 3:20

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my
voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person,
and they with me."___The Lord Jesus
The reader is called upon to make a choice {to choose}
{1} open the door
or
{2} refuse to open the door

How about John 7:17 ?


"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
find out whether my teaching comes from God
or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
John 7:17
{1} choose to do God will
{2} choose not to do God's will



Best.

JAGG

Why you wasting spàce ? Man's will isn't free from God's absolute control. We can only make choices and decisions that He determined. Sorry!
 

JAGG

New member
Two cents:

1 ¢ I don't like the term 'free' will but a 'culpable' will, which is, in some qualification 'free' but 'free' is a huge can of worms that is very difficult to define where no two persons alike mean the same thing. Perhaps in commanding "do not eat" and putting the two in the Garden, God made man in some sense 'free' but prohibitions aren't best understood in the sense of freedom, but also as the restriction which is needed and necessary if ever 'free' is to have good theological meaning and strong spiritual implication.

¢ # 2 I do believe your example demonstrates one way in which sovereignty and choice work. We are very much creatures of habit. You can bet your bottom dollar, every time, I'll choose Strawberry over chocolate and you'd be wise to offer me vanilla over strawberry as well. If you ONLY offered me vanilla, you've not, in fact, erased my freewill, but accentuated it. It is as clear as that. No one thinking this through, is going to think their will is violated when you give them what they want. Further, no Christian is going to cry foul if the God of the Universe gives them what He desires over their own will, as the Son offered: "Not my will, but Thine" and "Thy will be done."


Lon,

Thank you for taking the time to make those comments.

Can we agree on my post up-thread where I mentioned Joshua 24:15 and John 7:17 ?

My view is that the "Human Ability To Choose" and the Sovereign Will Of God are BOTH
assumed to be true throughout the Holy Bible and neither one contradicts the other.

I deliberately chose "Human Ability To Choose" and avoided the "problem" words "Free Will."

If we do not have the "Human Ability To Choose" then we have some major Big Time Serious
interpretative problems spread out from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is one right here , , ,

John 3:16 presents a choice.
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

I mean if we have to have a major in-depth theological discussion before we can agree that
John 3:16 asks humans to choose -- then we have some very serious Evangelistic problems.

What about the Billy Graham Crusades? Did Billy "miss the boat" when he gave the "altar call"
and asked people to "make a decision" to accept Christ as their Savior? Or should Billy have
held in-depth theological classes instead of Evangelistic Crusades? In-depth theological
classes to discuss the Calvinistic vs. Armenian position on Human "Free Will" and the
Sovereignty Of God ?

Just imagine how that would have "gone down" among those who came to hear Billy preach
the gospel.

, , lol , , ,

God Bless Us All.

JAGG


``
 

JAGG

New member
Why you wasting spàce ? Man's will isn't free from God's absolute control.
We can only make choices and decisions that He determined. Sorry!

, , LOL , ,

You need "thread fuel" for another Calvinist vs. Armenian Thread but you
will NOT get the "fuel" from me. And Nanja will not give you the "fuel" nor
will others who already agree with you. So? So that means this thread is
going to soon be as dead as a rock.

Here is just a little tiny bit of "fuel" that might get you one or two
additional posts before Thread Death occurs.

God Bless you.


"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom
you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
___Joshua 24:15



"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
find out whether my teaching comes from God
or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
John 7:17

Best.

JAGG


``
 
Last edited:

beloved57

Well-known member
, , LOL , ,

You need "thread fuel" foe another Calvinist vs. Armenian Thread but you
will NOT get the "fuel" from me. And Nanja will not give you the "fuel" nor
will others who already agree with you. So? So that means this thread is
going to soon be as dead as a rock.

Here is just a little tiny bit of "fuel" that might get you one or two
additional posts before Thread Death occurs.

God Bless you.


"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom
you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
___Joshua 24:15



"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
find out whether my teaching comes from God
or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
John 7:17

Best.

JAGG


``

I never said man cannot make choices, he can, but they are predetermined by God. For instance, man is asked or told to serve God or not, well what ever choice he made was predetermined by God! If he chooses not to serve God then he chose according to the Will of God!
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon,

Thank you for taking the time to make those comments.

Can we agree on my post up-thread where I mentioned Joshua 24:15 and John 7:17 ?

My view is that the "Human Ability To Choose" and the Sovereign Will Of God are BOTH
assumed to be true throughout the Holy Bible and neither one contradicts the other.

I deliberately chose "Human Ability To Choose" and avoided the "problem" words "Free Will."

If we do not have the "Human Ability To Choose" then we have some major Big Time Serious
interpretative problems spread out from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is one right here , , ,

John 3:16 presents a choice.
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

I mean if we have to have a major in-depth theological discussion before we can agree that
John 3:16 asks humans to choose -- then we have some very serious Evangelistic problems.

What about the Billy Graham Crusades? Did Billy "miss the boat" when he gave the "altar call"
and asked people to "make a decision" to accept Christ as their Savior? Or should Billy have
held in-depth theological classes instead of Evangelistic Crusades? In-depth theological
classes to discuss the Calvinistic vs. Armenian position on Human "Free Will" and the
Sovereignty Of God ?

Just imagine how that would have "gone down" among those who came to hear Billy preach
the gospel.

, , lol , , ,

God Bless Us All.

JAGG


``[/SIZE]
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (of people) that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life."

Does this sentence alone 'require' a decision?

:nono: It is a statement of fact, not a query or implore. There is no "Be born again!" command.

I want to be very careful not to import 'into' a text. I don't want to add to God's words, but explain what is clearly there as well as call into question what I clearly don't see there.

The whole of John 3 is an explanation of 'you must be born again' to Nicodemus. Nicodemus asked how it was possible/what it meant and John 3:16 is the answer to the question. The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't give a command "do this" but a condition to be met "be born again." We cannot 'born again' ourselves and that much, I believe, is clear of this passage where nowhere is Nicodemus asked to do anything. He is rather told a condition that must be met.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"That" is the condition to be met. Nicodemus, in John 3:1-3 doesn't ask a question, like 'what must I do to be saved?' Rather Nicodemus says "We know you are a teacher from God."
Imo, the most difficult verse in John 3 is verse 3. It sets up the message 'from God.' "You must be born again" is the message, and Jesus is the answer to accomplish the needed condition to be met.

Mid Acts may weigh in here on a difference: They don't see 'born again' as the gospel, but it is at least similar in that Jesus had to die and rise again for man to be in Christ as a new creation.
 

JAGG

New member
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (of people) that He gave His
Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish
but have everlasting life."

Does this sentence alone 'require' a decision?

:nono: It is a statement of fact, not a query or implore. There is no
"Be born again!" command.

I want to be very careful not to import 'into' a text. I don't want to
add to God's words, but explain what is clearly there as well as call
into question what I clearly don't see there.

The whole of John 3 is an explanation of 'you must be born again'
to Nicodemus. Nicodemus asked how it was possible/what it
meant and John 3:16 is the answer to the question. The Lord
Jesus Christ doesn't give a command "do this" but a condition
to be met "be born again." We cannot 'born again' ourselves and
that much, I believe, is clear of this passage where nowhere is
Nicodemus asked to do anything. He is rather told a condition
that must be met.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
eternal life.

"That" is the condition to be met. Nicodemus, in John 3:1-3
doesn't ask a question, like 'what must I do to be saved?'
Rather Nicodemus says "We know you are a teacher from God."
Imo, the most difficult verse in John 3 is verse 3. It sets up the
message 'from God.' "You must be born again" is the message,
and Jesus is the answer to accomplish the needed condition to
be met.


Mid Acts may weigh in here on a difference:They don't see 'born
again' as the gospel, but it is at least similar in that Jesus had to
die and rise again for man to be in Christ as a new creation.

?
"Mid Acts" , , ,They" __Lon

Mid way the book of Acts?
?


Lon,
Thank you for reading my OP and for reading my follow-up posts.
I appreciate you doing that.

I think, on these issues, we live in different worlds. Lets see if we do?

Based on our general knowledge of the Bible, some questions:
{There will be some over-lapping to make the points.}

Does God want all men to come to repentance? Yes.
Is God willing that any men perish? No.
Do all men have to be born again to keep from perishing? Yes.
Do you have to be born again to be saved? Yes.
Can men be saved without being born again? No.
So does God want all men to be born again? Yes.
Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
Can any man be saved without believing as per John 3:16? No.
So does John 3:16 imply that men must make a decision? Yes.
Was Nicodemus a man? Yes.
Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
Could Nicodemus be saved without being born again? No.
Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be saved? Yes.
Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be born again? Yes
In light of all that up there does John 3:16 call on men to choose? Yes.
To choose what? Answer: To choose to believe in the Lord Jesus
In light of all that up there would God desire all men to pray and ask for God's help to be born again? Yes.
Is it reasonable to believe that Nicodemus, after talking to Jesus, wanted to be born again? Yes.
Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus wanted Nicodemus to ask God or the Holy Spirit to help him become born again? Yes.

___________________


Does the Bible teach that we ought to explain in-depth the Calvinistic concept vs. the Armenian concept
of Salvation to potential converts in Christian Evangelistic Meetings -- prior to asking people to pray this
prayer? No


"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."
__from the Billy Graham Crusades



_____________


My view is that we can make things to complicated, in the name of being "true to the text" as we

interpret the Holy Bible.

There is one message for Theological Classes in Theological Seminaries, but quite a different message
when conducting Evangelistic Crusades, agree?

___________


Would you "run this by" a potential convert in an Evangelistic Crusade? , , , /Big Grin here.



V.
Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,(i) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto:(k) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.(l)

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.(m) Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,(n) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(o) and kept by His power through faith, unto salvation.(p) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(q)

VII.
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)
Source: The Westminster Confession Of faith.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...fession-faith/

_________________


I have "racked my brain" for decades with theological hair-splitting and I have
grown tired of it. Its the "same ole same ole" endlessly in thread after thread.
So? So I take the simple approach -- as I have presented in some of my posts
in this thread. To simple?

Am I being to simple?

______


I Am Open To Lon's Ideas , , ,
However I am open to your ideas. I have read enough of your posts to know that
you have interesting and informative points to make. I stand to benefit from reading
what you write -- and I will appreciate any thoughts or responses to what I have written
above -- if you find any of it interesting enough to merit a reply. If not feel free to ignore
whatever you find uninteresting.

_____________


Lon,
In another vein, here is a short piece I wrote and just today re-worked it. I post it
below just to "be chatty" with you. I seem to recall having mentioned this to you
previously -- but I'm not certain if I did or not.

You have any views on this:

Here tis:


Playing The B-Card And The G-Card , , ,
In my view the Christian is treated better on Secular Forums than they
are treated on Christian Forums. On many Christian Forums one's fellow
Christians become
Cannibals as they "eat each other alive" in the name
of God and in the name of Truth. Sad but true , , ,

``
, , , and our fellow Christians will play the B-Card and the G-Card in a flash.
The B-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with the Bible."

``
The G-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with God."
When they play the B-Card and the G-Card, the "debate" is pretty much over --
because No Christian can disagree with the Bible or with God, right?

``
And AFTER they play the B-Card and the G-Card if you "keep going" against
their personal interpretation of the Bible -- many of them will immediately
PUT YOU IN HELL - - - and tell you that you are NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN.
Sad but true. But it tis a Fact.




Some Bible Verses That Might Apply , , ,
"If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by
each other."___Galatians 5:15

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as
in Christ God forgave you."___Ephesians 4:32

"Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be
compassionate and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual
edification."__Romans 14:19

"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
everyone."___Romans 12:18

"Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate
and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they
produce quarrels."__2 Timothy 2:23

"Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against
quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."__2 Timothy 2:14

Best.

JAGG


``
 

Lon

Well-known member
Trimmed down to more specific points...
Can men be saved without being born again? No.
So does God want all men to be born again? Yes.
Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
Can any man be saved without believing as per John 3:16? No.
I'm not MAD but I have quite a bit of agreement with them. On this one? :idunno:

So does John 3:16 imply that men must make a decision? Yes.
Implications, I'm much more cautious about. I could say "I think so" but no further.

Was Nicodemus a man? Yes.
Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
Could Nicodemus be saved without being born again? No.
Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be saved? Yes.
Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be born again? Yes
In light of all that up there does John 3:16 call on men to choose? Yes.
To choose what? Answer: To choose to believe in the Lord Jesus
Have to disagree because the assumption doesn't fit. "As Moses lifted the serpent, so the Son of Man must be lifted up" hadn't happened yet.

In light of all that up there would God desire all men to pray and ask for God's help to be born again? Yes.
Its a drawn conclusion, again upon assumptions of 'light' of previous assumptions. There is no 'pray and ask for help to be born again' in the passage.
Is it reasonable to believe that Nicodemus, after talking to Jesus, wanted to be born again? Yes.
Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus wanted Nicodemus to ask God or the Holy Spirit to help him become born again? Yes.
Again, such gets into mind-reading and I really hesitate to make assumptions about the scriptures. Such leads to further assumptions and beyond the scope of the scriptures.

Billy Graham said:
"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."
__from the Billy Graham Crusades

Well and good, but not sure it applies to John 3 here, other than Billy Graham used John 3:16 to invite people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
My view is that we can make things to complicated, in the name of being "true to the text" as we
interpret the Holy Bible.
Yeah, I believe your post does fall in line with that. Lest I'm supporting the traditions of men, if I cannot show it, clearly, from scripture, I'm both hesitant and careful in conveying ideas.
There is one message for Theological Classes in Theological Seminaries, but quite a different message
when conducting Evangelistic Crusades, agree?
Again, while John 3:16 is a set up for trusting Christ, I know a few now-atheists that said that prayer.

Would you "run this by" a potential convert in an Evangelistic Crusade? , , , /Big Grin here.


V.
Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,(i) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto:(k) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.(l)

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.(m) Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,(n) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(o) and kept by His power through faith, unto salvation.(p) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(q)

VII.
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)
Source: The Westminster Confession Of faith.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...fession-faith/

_________________


I rather believe scripture should be given to people who want to know about the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have "racked my brain" for decades with theological hair-splitting and I have
grown tired of it. Its the "same ole same ole" endlessly in thread after thread.
So? So I take the simple approach -- as I have presented in some of my posts
in this thread. To simple?

Am I being to simple?
The more I've presented the scriptures, the more I'm convinced that I need to answer the question: "What must I do to be saved?" Answer? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."



I Am Open To Lon's Ideas , , ,
However I am open to your ideas. I have read enough of your posts to know that
you have interesting and informative points to make. I stand to benefit from reading
what you write -- and I will appreciate any thoughts or responses to what I have written
above -- if you find any of it interesting enough to merit a reply. If not feel free to ignore
whatever you find uninteresting.


Appreciate that. I don't generally go this direction with John 3 though I do realize Billy Graham, Luis Palau, etc use this passage to introduce an invitation and prayer.

I'm not against the idea per say, but I've come to a point where I try to give scripture to answer specific questions. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for me, is before a prayer etc.

Lon,
In another vein, here is a short piece I wrote and just today re-worked it. I post it
below just to "be chatty" with you. I seem to recall having mentioned this to you
previously -- but I'm not certain if I did or not.

You have any views on this:

Here tis:
Playing The B-Card And The G-Card , , ,
In my view the Christian is treated better on Secular Forums than they
are treated on Christian Forums. On many Christian Forums one's fellow
Christians become
Cannibals as they "eat each other alive" in the name
of God and in the name of Truth. Sad but true , , ,

``
, , , and our fellow Christians will play the B-Card and the G-Card in a flash.
The B-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with the Bible."

``
The G-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with God."
When they play the B-Card and the G-Card, the "debate" is pretty much over --
because No Christian can disagree with the Bible or with God, right?

``
And AFTER they play the B-Card and the G-Card if you "keep going" against
their personal interpretation of the Bible -- many of them will immediately
PUT YOU IN HELL - - - and tell you that you are NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN.
Sad but true. But it tis a Fact.




Some Bible Verses That Might Apply , , ,
"If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by
each other."___Galatians 5:15

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as
in Christ God forgave you."___Ephesians 4:32

"Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be
compassionate and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual
edification."__Romans 14:19

"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
everyone."___Romans 12:18

"Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate
and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they
produce quarrels."__2 Timothy 2:23

"Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against
quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."__2 Timothy 2:14

Best.

JAGG


``

I've posted similar that we need to treat one another well but I'd not go as far as: Better on a secular forum? :nono: Not for me. If you mention Jesus Christ or political disagreement, for instance, on Facebook, the treatment isn't great.

I've seen a lot of Christians say this, but I think it has to be an eye of the beholder thing, because I'm certain I've never seen this and certainly have been treated worse by nonChristians. Have I been at the mercy of Christians too? Yes, just saying I'm not seeing anything stark in the difference EXCEPT when Christians are fellowshipping and getting along, I've never seen a counterpart (biased, but I think as it should be).
 

JAGG

New member
Trimmed down to more specific points...

I'm not MAD but I have quite a bit of agreement with them. On this one? :idunno:


Implications, I'm much more cautious about. I could say "I think so" but no further.


Have to disagree because the assumption doesn't fit. "As Moses lifted the serpent, so the Son of Man must be lifted up" hadn't happened yet.


Its a drawn conclusion, again upon assumptions of 'light' of previous assumptions. There is no 'pray and ask for help to be born again' in the passage.

Again, such gets into mind-reading and I really hesitate to make assumptions about the scriptures. Such leads to further assumptions and beyond the scope of the scriptures.


Well and good, but not sure it applies to John 3 here, other than Billy Graham used John 3:16 to invite people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yeah, I believe your post does fall in line with that. Lest I'm supporting the traditions of men, if I cannot show it, clearly, from scripture, I'm both hesitant and careful in conveying ideas.

Again, while John 3:16 is a set up for trusting Christ, I know a few now-atheists that said that prayer.


The more I've presented the scriptures, the more I'm convinced that I need to answer the question: "What must I do to be saved?" Answer? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

Appreciate that. I don't generally go this direction with John 3 though I do realize Billy Graham, Luis Palau, etc use this passage to introduce an invitation and prayer.

I'm not against the idea per say, but I've come to a point where I try to give scripture to answer specific questions. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for me, is before a prayer etc.


I've posted similar that we need to treat one another well but I'd not go as far as: Better on a secular forum? :nono: Not for me. If you mention Jesus Christ or political disagreement, for instance, on Facebook, the treatment isn't great.

I've seen a lot of Christians say this, but I think it has to be an eye of the beholder thing, because I'm certain I've never seen this and certainly have been treated worse by nonChristians. Have I been at the mercy of Christians too? Yes, just saying I'm not seeing anything stark in the difference EXCEPT when Christians are fellowshipping and getting along, I've never seen a counterpart (biased, but I think as it should be).

Lon,
I read every word you wrote up there and I appreciate your reply
and you taking the time to respond to what I posted.

I don't have anything right now to "add to" what I have previously posted,
but in an effort to "keep in touch" I will ask you what are your major areas
of interest? It is always nice to find someone that has common interest, on
the Internet, with which to chat once in awhile -- on subjects of mutual interest.
Even if the chat is only "now and then" , , , ,and not "long & drawn out" , , ,
Have you written anything lately?
Do you write articles and post them?
Do you blog?
What are your Eschatological views?

I am a Postmillennialist and have been one for decades.
Here is one of my major themes:
He Shall Have Dominion is THE major theme of my life.

Christ Shall Have Dominion.

Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea" Psalm 72:8
Christ. "the whole Earth will be filled with His glory" Psalm 72:19
So that "all nations shall call Him blessed" Psalm 72:17
And the Lord Jesus really meant it when He commanded His Christian
Church to "go and make disciples of all nations" Matthew 28:19

I believe the Christian Church will successfully carry out her Great Commission
and that the vast overwhelming majority of humanity will be salvaged -- that the
world, in the far off mega-millenniums, will be Christianized -- not that every single
soul will become a born again Christian, but that the vast majority will be salvaged.

I'm not trying to get an argument going here --- merely putting out feelers to see if
we have any common Eschatological ground? I do not argue Christian Eschatology
inside Thread World -- doing that reduces to Thread-Insanity -- I have NEVER seen
it go otherwise in threads. It ends up with huge "Data Dumps" copied off of
"End-Times" web pages and all that accompanied by playing the B-Card and the
G-Card, plus hostility galore. , , lol , , ,

_______________

Lon,

What are your major themes?
What is your main message to other people?
What do you desire to impart unto them?
What do you want them to know?
If you were asked to tell JAGG 3 things you think are crucial to the correct
understanding of Christianity what would they be?
{1} ___________
{2} __________
{3} __________

Or we can go with just 2 or just 1
Also if the above does not interest you, feel free to ignore it.

What is Lon's major message to people on the Internet?

Best.

JAGG

_________


Thought For Today:

"He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon,

What are your major themes?
What is your main message to other people?
What do you desire to impart unto them?
What do you want them to know?
If you were asked to tell JAGG 3 things you think are crucial to the correct
understanding of Christianity what would they be?
{1} ___________
{2} __________
{3} __________

Or we can go with just 2 or just 1
Also if the above does not interest you, feel free to ignore it.

What is Lon's major message to people on the Internet?

Best.

JAGG

_________


Thought For Today:[/SIZE]
"He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53
Uhhg, TOL lost my reply. I'll have to rewrite it, a little time please.
 
Top