The Gospel of grace leading to love solves every moral problem.

[thborn]

I am trying to read the Gospel anew with childlike eyes.

Love is patient. Love is not self-seeking. (1 Corinthians 13: 4)

Love does not ask anything in return.

Love goes against the self, except in a sense with God, who shows His glory because he is Love.

Love leads to union but first we have to feel the pain of other living creatures. ;

Christ did this and Christians share in the sufferings of Christ.

We can experience love because of God’s grace.

Sometimes a person must experience much cruelty from others, from both those they love and do not love, in order for love to be perfected in them through suffering and rejection of self. Is this part of the reason why evil exists?

God does not offer grace, he gives it. (Romans 3:24, 2 Corinthians 12:9, Ephesians 1 and 2.)

Because God is Love, and real love would not allow all to remain under the sin of Adam.

This grace is given freely to anyone God chooses (those called, 1 Corinthians 2 and 1 Galatians 6), not those who try to (consciously or subconsciously) earn it by believing or through other works.

Because God is Love, and real love does not ask for anything in return.

Christ died for others even though people are in themselves are pathetically unwilling and incapable of accepting God and goodness.

Because God is the ultimate in love.

But God’s grace is so powerful, that it takes the form of transforming the person, giving him or her a new self, so that not only do they believe but...when there is sufficient time left in their lives...they do countless selfless works and persevere in the faith until the end.

 

[thborn]

In reflecting on God’s love it may be helpful to read John 14 and 15.

John 15: 9-14:“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.

John 15: 16-17 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. This is my command: Love each other.

I recently heard the statement from a preacher that when one becomes a Believer God works within one to change what one loves and what one hates.

I don’t know of an exact Scripture passage like that…this may be a paraphrase of sorts of the Scripture passages that speak of a new self, a reborn self in the Believer.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Ephesians 4:22-24 To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

After becoming a Christian or being brought into a deeper relationship with Christ, many Believers can tell you that they don’t participate in hobbies or watch certain movies they used to be crazy about but which do not please the Lord. Or maybe they have stopped loving the idea of being super rich, etc. This is a gift from God that makes it easier to follower Christ. Many nonbelievers see Christianity as about ‘giving things up.’ But to love what God loves and hate what God hates is so much deeper than that. It’s really about gaining. Yeah, I gave up some things, but internalizing Scriptural teachings lead me to all this other stuff I didn’t know was out there.

To the Believer, through grace, the things of God becomes more desirable than gold and sweeter than honey from the comb (to borrow from Psalm 19).

How do you think Believers experience this change? Would it be obvious to say that sometimes it feels like it just happens, and sometimes it feels like a choice?

Whenever we do something good or choose something good, that is grace acting. We might as well believe that it is totally grace, to give God the most glory. That’s what we can believe. But as we live it, it sometimes feels like a conscious choice. Is it possible for every Believer turn off that perception and just let the Spirit work and choose the right thing? To avoid watching a certain movie, or to spend a chunk of one’s life cleaning and caring for somebody?

Regardless, action is something that marks God’s elect, however it feels as grace causes and brings such action to fruition. Very few if any of God’s chosen ones take action solely through prayer and worshipping God through Scripture and proclaiming it…though this is the central holy action of many Believer’s lives.

We know from Scripture some of the things that God loves.
2: Corinthians 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

[Bradley D]

How do you think Believers experience this change? Would it be obvious to say that sometimes it feels like it just happens, and sometimes it feels like a choice?

I know for me it was my sins bringing me to near death. I turned 40 years old in a detox/mental ward. I turned to God and began by reading the Gideon's Bible that was in the room.

 

[thborn]

I know for me it was my sins bringing me to near death. I turned 40 years old in a detox/mental ward. I turned to God and began by reading the Gideon's Bible that was in the room.

I thank God for your faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings thborn,

I am trying to read the Gospel anew with childlike eyes.
Love is patient. Love is not self-seeking. (1 Corinthians 13: 4)
Love does not ask anything in return.
Love goes against the self, except in a sense with God, who shows His glory because he is Love.
Love leads to union but first we have to feel the pain of other living creatures. ;
Christ did this and Christians share in the sufferings of Christ.
We can experience love because of God’s grace.

I was interested in your two Posts and I can agree with much of what you say, but I am not sure that we are on the same page. I agree that we must read the Gospel with childlike eyes, but I am not sure of whether we agree on some aspects. Firstly, the title of your thread caught my attention: “The Gospel of grace leading to love solves every moral problem.” This sounds nice and to speak of “love” also seems excellent. Where I may differ is the question of what is the Gospel, and I would briefly mention the following references to help define the Gospel, and leave it open for your further comment.
Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 1:16–17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 28:30–31 (KJV): 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[thborn]

Greetings thborn, I was interested in your two Posts and I can agree with much of what you say, but I am not sure that we are on the same page. I agree that we must read the Gospel with childlike eyes, but I am not sure of whether we agree on some aspects. Firstly, the title of your thread caught my attention: “The Gospel of grace leading to love solves every moral problem.” This sounds nice and to speak of “love” also seems excellent. Where I may differ is the question of what is the Gospel, and I would briefly mention the following references to help define the Gospel, and leave it open for your further comment.

TrevorL,

thanks for the Scripture quotations. They helped motivate me to begin a study of each Scriptural references to the kingdom of God and to the Gospel. Not that I necessarily have any special revelation from God to find what others have not already found through years of study.

At the moment I am open to instruction as to what the Kingdom is and what the Gospel is, until such time as I am given the grace to understand the truth better. I am well aware there is a disagreement as to what sense Paul’s preaching differs from what Christ and the disciples initially preached. There is a difference...it is with Paul and onwards that we are told fully about salvation thought Christ's death and the power of grace, although the Gospel of John does speak about grace.

I do see great consistency in the teaching of belief in Christ and in the picture of true believers who follow Christ’s teachings on love. In Romans, Paul explains that the deeper workings of grace and faith have not substantially changed over time, but that revelation has. I see some justification for the view that, at the time of Paul’s preaching, there is a new dispensation in which grace works in the believer’s life in a way that is even more separate from Jewish tradition than at the time Jesus preached in Israel. At the moment I do not see an ultimate dividing difference between Paul and Peter, but I will continue to examine the beliefs of those who have studied this longer.

There is perhaps room on this issue for believers to agree to disagree…as long as one does not limit His will through preconceived/outside notions, and as long as there is the earnest intent to glorify God to the utmost, and as long one’s motivation doe not have to do with oneself. My hope for myself and others is to always act and believe out of love of Jesus.

I know that some disagree with the level to which I exalt grace in salvation or the way I express that, and that will often be a big difference in understanding the Gospel.

Sincerely, thborn

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again thborn,

thanks for the Scripture quotations. They helped motivate me to begin a study of each Scriptural references to the kingdom of God and to the Gospel. Not that I necessarily have any special revelation from God to find what others have not already found through years of study.
At the moment I am open to instruction as to what the Kingdom is and what the Gospel is, until such time as I am given the grace to understand the truth better. I am well aware there is a disagreement as to what sense Paul’s preaching differs from what Christ and the disciples initially preached. There is a difference...it is with Paul and onwards that we are told fully about salvation thought Christ's death and the power of grace, although the Gospel of John does speak about grace.

I appreciate your moderate response. I have a different perspective on the word grace, or perhaps the way you seem to be using this word. For my part I have looked at a number of threads on this forum that seem to be similar to what you have stated, and I was not intending to get deeply involved as I have responded to a few of these threads in the past and realise that this teaching is strongly embedded in those that advocate this view. My understanding is that there is only one Gospel, and this has been taught from Eden until now, and the only change has been the addition and clarification of detail. The promise in Eden concerning the woman’s seed and its victory over sin and its effects Genesis 3:15 has been expanded in the promises to Abram and David, and in the prophetic writings, and then the fullness of revelation by and in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God and then the unified teaching of all Apostles after the death and resurrection of Jesus. To me, the word grace first and principally represents the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 3:21–31 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I do see great consistency in the teaching of belief in Christ and in the picture of true believers who follow Christ’s teachings on love. In Romans, Paul explains that the deeper workings of grace and faith have not substantially changed over time, but that revelation has. I see some justification for the view that, at the time of Paul’s preaching, there is a new dispensation in which grace works in the believer’s life in a way that is even more separate from Jewish tradition than at the time Jesus preached in Israel. At the moment I do not see an ultimate dividing difference between Paul and Peter, but I will continue to examine the beliefs of those who have studied this longer.

I do not agree that revelation has changed over time except for more detail, and I am reticent to accept your use of “grace” and “new dispensation”.

There is perhaps room on this issue for believers to agree to disagree…as long as one does not limit His will through preconceived/outside notions, and as long as there is the earnest intent to glorify God to the utmost, and as long one’s motivation does not have to do with oneself. My hope for myself and others is to always act and believe out of love of Jesus.

I can agree with the sentiment, but suggest that there is only one Gospel, and there are many aberrations.

I know that some disagree with the level to which I exalt grace in salvation or the way I express that, and that will often be a big difference in understanding the Gospel.

Perhaps the lareger range of ideas incorporated by some in the word “grace” could include Holy Spirit guidance and some forms of Calvinism. My perspective is that we are saved when we affectionately believe the one Gospel which is universally proclaimed to all and this one Gospel motivates us to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[thborn]

Greetings again thborn, I appreciate your moderate response. I have a different perspective on the word grace, or perhaps the way you seem to be using this word. For my part I have looked at a number of threads on this forum that seem to be similar to what you have stated, and I was not intending to get deeply involved as I have responded to a few of these threads in the past and realise that this teaching is strongly embedded in those that advocate this view.

This is actually something I’ve recently embraced. I often gravitate towards Scriptural views that are new or difficult. It helps maintain struggle and submission. Then again, maybe I’m also looking for approval from others.

To me, the word grace first and principally represents the forgiveness of sins.

All I can really say at the moment is that grace is vital, it is something of a mystery, and it clearly does more than thing. At times it is largely about forgiveness. Also, In 2 Timothy 2:1 we have "be strong in the grace" or "strengthened in grace", and in other places grace accompanies the words 'chosen' and 'called' or the desire for action. In the quote you use (Romans 3:21-31) It is used in very close connection with faith, similar to the "by grace, through faith" of Ephesians 2:8.

What a strange but good thing it is to think about God living in someone.

I do not agree that revelation has changed over time except for more detail,

That’s actually more along the lines of what I meant…that more is made known, or expressed in new ways.

and I am reticent to accept your use of “grace” and “new dispensation”.

I'm not always certain about my usage of 'dispensation.' It seems it's possible to use the word dispensation to mean a different spiritual character or flavor, either by time period or geographic region, or a different 'church' with different guidance or requirements and perhaps (at least regarding Israel) a slightly different relationship with God. I tend towards belief in unity among Believers worldwide, until the full number of the Gentiles have been gathered in, but I used the phrasing I did to indicate that I still wish to listen to the views of true dispensationalists and remain amenable.

Sincerely, thborn

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again thborn,

All I can really say at the moment is that grace is vital, it is something of a mystery, and it clearly does more than thing. At times it is largely about forgiveness.
What a strange but good thing it is to think about God living in someone.

I hold to the view that the Gospel affectionately believed is how God dwells in us. This is also a growth process and a transforming power unto salvation Romans 1:16-17.

Kind regards
Trevor