Right Divider
Body part
What would an RC know about interpreting scripture correctly? (Hint: the correct answer is nothing)
THE LORDS DAY CONTROVERSY?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
Ummm the Father has a set of commandments and the Son has a separate set that undermines and divides this kingdom?
Despite all the texts having Him say “Do My Father’s will”? Which was to get rid of one of the commandments? No longer provide a day of rest?
Despite a covenant taught and exemplified to follow BEFORE it was signed blood and sealed by His death? No changes are allowed after...
Despite the Sabbath was ALWAYS for the stranger within Israel’s gates and not just for Jews...in fact the ONLY commandments of the 10 with specific instruction it is for ANY who believe...ONE law for native and foreigner alike...
Is it in revelations “Here are they that keep 9 of the commandments? And have the faith OF Jesus except the Sabbath”?
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Do tell...
Yup...in fact the Roman Church uses the transfer of Sabbath to Sunday as its mark of authority...
It prides itself it was NOT in scripture but in tradition...Sunday or every day any day is NOT in scripture the councils insist...despite the best attempts by these recent keyboard scholars attempts to insert it back into scripture...
As if He lies when He said “think NOT the Law will be destroyed” and any change would destroy it...
in fact in Acts 6:13-14 they accuse poor Stephen that he taught Jesus changed the customs of Moses...Luke was clear this was FALSE WITNESS as Stephen did NOT teach Jesus changed the Law handed to Moses...
Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
That is FALSE. That is not true.
Here is official teaching, from the Catechism, posted on the Vatican website, special note on 2175:
I. THE SABBATH DAY
2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92
2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man too ought to "rest" and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97
2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."102
II. THE LORD'S DAY
- - This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
- - We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
- - Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.
NOTE that 2175 says that the Sabbath is not the same as the Lord's Day, and that the Lord's Day is a different day. It was never "transfered" as you claim. You are posting lies in the name of God.
Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
I REPEAT:
There is no controversy, it is very simple:
The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Always has been, always will be.
The first day of the week has always been observed by Christians as the Lord's Day, the day that Christ rose from the dead, and the day of gathering for prayers and worship and and the "breaking of bread".
Very simple.
There is no controversy, it is very simple:
The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Always has been, always will be.
The first day of the week has always been observed by Christians as the Lord's Day, the day that Christ rose from the dead, and the day of gathering for prayers and worship and and the "breaking of bread".
Very simple.
Right Divider
Body part
Revelation 1:10 is referring to neither Saturday nor Sunday. It is talking about the "day of the Lord"... His judgment spoken of throughout the Bible. Revelation is the description of the fulfillment of "that day" and what comes after.
Very simple.
P.S. Instead of giving me your retarded "you don't interpret right", how about you explain why you believe THAT VERSE refers to a day of the week.
You are totally right.
God, via prophets (before the incarnation of Jesus, the Son of Heaven and not a mere prophet), gathered the people of Israel under a law. So, as you said, every child of Israel had to observe what were known as 'holy days'.
After Jesus, one became free to observe this law (addressed to our ancient ancestors, kids of humanity) or live the unconditional love towards all others (including his enemies) which is the crucial essence of Jesus message (Jesus, I know).
By the way, when I visited China (for business), I noticed that, if we exclude what is related to God directly, the law that the Chinese Atheists observe is much like the one of the ancient Israel; they are also not supposed to kill, steal... etc.
In reality, a good law (as of Israel) is important, if not necessary, for groups because it helps the gathered people having a better chance for survival..
On the other hand, two 'real' friends don't need to observe any law in their union (friendship). Similarly, a 'real' loving father and his beloved son don't need to apply any law in their relation.
If there is a certain Jesus law, Jesus wouldn’t state His greatest two ‘commandments’ (‘advices’ from a loving father to his beloved son, in Arabic) about ‘love’ only, not worship, obedience or alike. But this doesn’t prevent anyone in the world to believe that the Creator of our huge universe is much like a Great Powerful King who has a limited well-defined law that the believer should observe and obey to avoid Heaven's wrath and punishment; now and afterlife. This is why Jesus added clearly:
“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
The reason is simple. While it is always possible for a man to obey a law (said of God or men), living the unconditional love towards all others (as revealed by Jesus) is out of question to the majority of people around the world (after all, it is against their natural instincts of survival).
Anyway, a wise ordinary person tries his best to follow what the group in charge of his ruling system approves as true; like Friday, Saturday or Sunday is the holy day.
Right Divider
Body part
None of this has anything to do with the topic of this thread.
(not to mention what much of it is wildly "out there"... nowhere does the Bible call Jesus "the Son of Heaven").
Take it up with your institution then as they say it is:
“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings ONLY on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome’s Challenge immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.
“Sunday IS OUR MARK OF AUTHORITY…THE CHURCH IS ABOVE THE BIBLE, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” — Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was HER ACT…And the ACT IS A
MARK OF HER ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” — H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.
“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our
Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).
“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.” — Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”
Who Made Sunday Holy?
“Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code (ten commandments) was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai…Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity–love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and
in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5)…The (Catholic) Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest
from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day…He (God) claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy…” — The Catholic Encyclopaedia, vol. 4, “The Ten Commandments”, 1908 edition by Robert Appleton Company;
and 1999 Online edition by Kevin Knight, Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
“Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly
contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” — Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On
the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power…People who think that the
Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” — St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.
“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday…Now the Church…instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority
for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.” — Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.
“Question – Which is the Sabbath day? “Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” — Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.
“Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day – Saturday – for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!” “Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter.
“Question. – How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
“Answer. – By the very act of changing Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
“Question. – How prove you that?
“Answer. – Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin: and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.” — An
Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, composed by Henry Tuberville, p. 58.
“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days
she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The (Roman Catholic) Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.” — John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 edition, vol. 1, p. 51.
“Question. What warrant have you for keeping Sunday preferably to the ancient sabbath which was Saturday? “Answer. We have for it the AUTHORITY of the Catholic church and apostolic tradition.
“Question. Does the Scripture anywhere command the Sunday to be kept for the Sabbath?
“Answer. The Scripture commands us to hear the church (St.Matt.18:17; St. Luke 10:16), and to hold fast the traditions of the apostles. 2 Thess 2:15. But the Scripture does not in particular mention this change of the Sabbath.
“St John speaks of the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) but he does not tell us what day of the week that was, much less does he tell us what day was to take the place of the Sabbath ordained in the commandments. St.Luke speaks of the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7. And St. Paul (1 Cor.16:2) orders that on the first day of the week the Corinthians should lay in store what they designated to bestow in charity
on the faithful in Judea: but neither the one or the other tells us that this first day of the week was to be henceforth a day of worship, and the Christian Sabbath; so that truly the best authority we have for this ancient custom is the testimony of the church. And therefore those who pretend to be such religious observers of Sunday, whilst they take no notice of other festivals ordained by the same church authority, show that they act more by humor, than by religion; since Sundays and holidays all stand upon the same foundation, namely the ordinance of the (Roman
Catholic) church.” — Catholic Christian Instructed, 17th edition, p. 272-273.
“Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.” — John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.
“The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday…The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.” — James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror,
September 23, 1983.
Whose Day of Worship is Sunday?
“They [the Protestants] deem it their duty to keep the Sunday holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason…The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely
distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance…The author of the Sunday law…is the Catholic Church.” — Ecclesiastical Review, February 1914.
“The Sunday…is PURELY A CREATION of the Catholic Church.” — American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.
“Sunday…is the law of the Catholic Church alone…” — American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893.
“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles…From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from
the last day of the week to the first.” — Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.
“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an INSTITUTION of the Roman Catholic Church, and those
who observe the day OBSERVE A COMMANDMENT OF THE Catholic Church.” — Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News,
Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.
Who Do We Reverence and Pay Homage to by Keeping Sunday Holy? “From this we may understand how great is the authority of the church in interpreting or explaining to us the
commandments of God – an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects which profess to take the holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week demanded by the Bible, but the first day. Which we know is to be kept holy,
only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic church.” — Henry Gibson, Catechism Made Easy, #2, 9th edition, vol. 1, p.
341-342.
“It was the Catholic church which…has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the
authority of the (Catholic) church.” — Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.
“Sunday is our mark of authority…the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” — Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was HER ACT…And the ACT IS A
MARK OF HER ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” — H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.
“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the
Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” — father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802.
“Protestants…accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change…But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that…In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the
authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” — Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.
Conclusion and the Challenge.
“The (Roman Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith,
has no warrant for observing Sunday.” — The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.
“Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” — Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.
“Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
“1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the
eyes of every thinking man.
“2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man
through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other
laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws…
“It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.” — Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975),
Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI”.
“I am going to propose a very plain and serious question to those who follow ‘the Bible and the Bible only’ to give their most earnest attention. It is this: Why don’t you keep holy the Sabbath day?…
“The command of the Almighty God stands clearly written in the Bible in these words: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God;
in it thou shalt not do any work.’ Exodus 20:8-10…
“You will answer me, perhaps, that you do keep the Sabbath; for that you abstain from all worldly business and diligently go to church, and say your prayers, and read your Bible at home every Sunday of your lives…
“But Sunday is not the Sabbath day. Sunday is the first day of the week: the Sabbath day is the seventh day of the week. Almighty God did not give a commandment that men should keep holy one day in seven; but He named His
own day, and said distinctly: ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’; and He assigned a reason for choosing this day rather than any other – a reason which belongs only to the seventh day of the week, and cannot be applied to the rest. He says, ‘For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it’, Exodus 20:11, Genesis 2:1-3. Almighty God ordered that all men should rest from their labor on the seventh day, because He too had rested on that day: He did not rest on Sunday, but on Saturday. On Sunday, which is the first day of the week, He began the work of
creation; He did not finish it. It was on Saturday that He ‘ended His work which he had made: and God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.’
Genesis 2:2-3…
“Nothing can be more plain and easy to understand than all this; there is nobody who attempts to deny it. It is acknowledged by everybody that the day which Almighty God appointed to be kept holy was Saturday, not Sunday.
Why do you then keep holy the Sunday and not Saturday?
“You will tell me that Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed! But by whom? Who has the authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God?
When God has spoken and said, ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’, who shall dare to say, ‘Nay, thou mayest work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day: but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead?’
This is a most important question, which I know not how you answer…
“You are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet, in so important a manner as the observance of one day in seven as the holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day
in the place of that day which the Bible has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the Ten Commandments; you believe that the other nine are still binding. Who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible, and the Bible only you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.” Excerpts from “Why Don’t You Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?”, pages 3-15 in The Clifton Tract, vol. 4, published by the Roman Catholic Church 1869.
“The arguments…are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to
Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible,
consistently accept her (the Catholic Church) in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicism and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, in Catholic Mirror,
December 23, 1893
Perhaps most of this language was pre V2's attempts to be more ecumenical and less of an authoritative power monger?
Is the below Catechism pre V2?
I. THE SABBATH DAY
2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92
2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man too ought to "rest" and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97
2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."102[/quote]
so far so good from what I have read...except maybe it was not only a memorial of Israel's liberation but also the mixed multitudes who believed and now traveled with them..ONE law was to be for both Native and foreigner as demonstrated by the Sabbath commandment itself...the irony...
Now I am just curious... do you consider yourself Israel?
- - This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103[/quote]
ok so what day is that Monday? Thursday? or maybe the very day this psalmist woke up in a good mood and wrote this praise? Certainly NO MENTION of its being Sunday
The only thing that happened that Sunday morning was an ALREADY EMPTY tomb was discovered...He had risen the day before...
it was the first day of the week following a passover Sabbath and thus this day was the FIRST FRUITS festival celebrated still by jews...as did the early church...which of course leads to another SUNDAY celebration...Leviticus 23:15-16
15 And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the LORD.
so the early church continued to celebrate as the "ekklesia" in the wilderness did...a sunday first fruits and a sunday pentecost...even after the cross...
for which Christians? Obedient ones to His calendar? Laws and times? or christians following one who changed both law and times...
and exactly when did this change take place? NOT IN THE TIME OF SCRIPTURE or first centuries
- - Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.[/quote]
that is nice...which of those who lived accoding to the old order of things have come to a new hope? the obedient or disobedient?
"Sunday takes up its rhythm and spirit"...yeah for about an hour...certainly not the entire day...
just like the golden calf observed to render God an outward visible public and regular worship...certainly not an inward circumcised heart submissive to Him His Will and Times...
I have showed otherwise...as for lies in the name of God? I haven't even used the name of God yet...
You are right. And I am sorry. Yes, I shouldn't be here (this thread) since I personally don't have holy days. Being an independent disciple of Jesus, I have no reason to follow the sun, the moon or alike.
And you remind me, with thanks, that it is time for me to start a thread titled: What could mean the word 'son' in any language?
Best wishes,
Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
Once again you lie like Satan. I have seen that same old cut and paste for over a year, and you liars have been told over and over again that none of those are official Church documents. My quote was straight from the Vatican website: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm
Bottom Line: You are a liar. Period..
My post stands as truth:
The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Always has been, always will be.
The first day of the week has always been observed by Christians as the Lord's Day, the day that Christ rose from the dead, and the day of gathering for prayers and worship and and the "breaking of bread".
that means what? Pope himself didnt write them?
and so? Look at what they cobbled together here:
1955 The "divine and natural" law6 shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one's equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called "natural," not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.7 The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.8
1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:
For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.9
1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.
1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:[/quote]
so which is it? Is His Law immutable or flexible with great variety based on culture places circumstances and times etc.?
by fiat eh? Typical...you papists never change ok?
yup...is why Paul kept it and in Act 15 James fully expected goyim crowding into synagagoes to continue to do so to hear Moses every Sabbath...prolly cuz even Jesus knew that after His ascension even...and during later times of trouble that both winter and Sabbaths would continue...
ummm nope...in fact even the first European goyim convert met with Paul on a Sabbath and was baptized on a Sabbath...Heb 4:9 states why...a sabbatismos remains for His people...you His people or not?...how do you say sabbatismos in latin?
Sunday keeping except first fruits and Pentecost was NOT in that first century ekklesia
I already shared that the only thing discovered that Sunday morning was an empty tomb...He did NOT rise from the dead on Sunday but the day before...
oh and was that bread broken leavened or unleavened?...Why? Show your work!....lol
He instructed to do as they teach from Moses seat...not as they do...
He also exemplified a lifestyle for us to follow...and instructed we should follow Him...and in doing His Father’s will which is of course to keep the commandments...
He instructed prayers be said that the Sabbath be kept in future times of trouble...as He also expected winter times to continue...
He claims that the Sabbath is the source of His authority...and from which He derives His power...as He is Lord of the Sabbath...just like Lord of London or Lord of Rings...
While dead He even rested on the Sabbath...
In fact just like in Eden when the first full day of the Adamic covenant was a Sabbath so too was the first full day of the New Covenant age...
Revelations concludes that here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and have the faith OF Yahushua...
which faith is that? Friday keeping Muslims? Or Sunday keeping Protestants?...follow His faith...
We cant make Sabbath holy we merely try to keep it Holy...it was made Holy by Him...for His...Heb 4:9
I respect your belief. And you would surprise me if you don't observe the Sabbath as a holy day.
But it happens that my relationship with my Creator (the Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified by the Divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit) is in the realm of true love in which there is no master or slave (no law to observe). I hope you know now why Jesus says: I am not of this world. The material world cannot be run without masters and slaves (faithful obedient followers, in modern words).
On the other hand, I am afraid that we cannot change ourselves even if we want to. For example, I am the same one I was 55 years ago. And none of the persons I had the chance to know/meet was able to change his priorities in life too.
By the way, it happens that I am a man of reason (scientist) so I knew Jesus based on reason not faith because He, unlike any one else, gave me the logical answers to all my important questions of 'Life Reality'; concerning my being and the world as it is. In other words, Jesus only was able to save me from my ignorance; the weakness that every human baby has to be born with. This universal weakness was revealed to our ancient ancestors (kids of humanity) under the name of "Original Sin" (Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge). In the far past, every serious weakness or illness in one's body was attributed to sin.
Sorry for talking too much and off topic though I have no intention to disturb the interesting conversations here about Sabbath.
Lon
Well-known member
:think:
Matthew 10:34
Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be those of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Luke 12:51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
Luke 12:52
From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
?
How DID you spend Saturday? Was it for the Lord? Did you watch television? How did you 'celebrate' the "Lord's Day?"
You mean, like no longer sacrificing bulls? No change? :think: Are you sure you are not simply a Jew, not a Christian?
When did you move to Israel? When I was in Texas, there was nothing open on Sunday. OF course the one who lives in Texas also observes Sunday, then (not sure if it is still the same way). So, did you buy cigarettes on the Lord's Day? Gas? A candy bar? Eggs?
It doesn't say '10 commandments' either :noway: Which verse? Revelation 14:12? Revelation 14:12 Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
THIS command? Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
▲That one? Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that you love one another. 34 A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.
▲THIS command? :think:
Romans 13:8-10 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:8-10)
:think:
Don't be angry that I don't want new wine placed in old wine-skins. Rather be blessed in God, through faith, and this not of yourself, lest you boast in your own prowess. Grace is a gift of God, not through works. Believers are new creations, recreated in Christ Jesus to do good, which God has prepared in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10)
So His spiritual kingdom is lawless?
So you could kill steal covet lie adultery?
or is His kingdom full of law and He expects that IN HIM where He is there is no killing no stealing no adultery no lying no coveting? Think you can add some to that list?
Think in His kingdom our elders are NOT honored or there is need of images? Or other gods are worshipped other gods names are used not in vain?
I listed 9...that I think are in His kingdom...did I miss one Law He actually instituted before sin?
oh hi Lon...miss your emojis...they so cute...
to the earth not His Father’s kingdom...or do you think He is leading a civil war between His will and His Father’s?
wow...ok...looks like you really do think He wishes to divide His Father’s kingdom...two sets of law...two wills...apartheid state...
you teach another gospel...another christ...
thing is I tried...you/yours don’t even do that but rationalize every day any daze....
ironically this past sunday was Pentecost...so with study of what all that festival meant...funny how they met for Pentecost and were blessed as even Peter preached obey and receive the Spirit...obey what? Oh right 9 out of 10...
notice no mention of Jesus sacrificing bulls? What did jews do between temples or even after 70AD...sacrifice of lips as He taught Mercy rather than sacrifice...the Law was not changed...its administration was as was the High Priest...the ministry of the unchanged Law...is why ALL kept Pentecost...Paul even Passover...Peter even kosher...
when did the Spirit make the land holy again? Oh wait it is not...Spirit is in a people as Paul confirmed...believers are grafted in...fellow citizens of Israel...just like when the church was in the wilderness...ONE LAW for native and believing goyim alike...NO DISTINCTION Peter preached as the wall between jew and goyim was removed...you and yours have rebuilt that wall He tore down...so it’s jew vs goyim again
yeah the one who changed laws and times will ultimately determine who buys and sell and NOT on Sunday...as for me and my house we wont serve that dude...
right...figure just like in secular sports the more rules you keep the better you get at any game
yup...which faith did Jesus have? Any daze every daze Sabbath? Or Sunday? Or Fridaze? What day did His faith hold sacred and Holy instituted by His Father?
sure...do as He did...duh...
Love AS HE LOVED US...JUST AS...so that qualifies it as NOT as the world loves...or the Buddhist or the Muslim love each other...right? I mean pagans love too right? Funny how both are NOT new as John says as both Love Him and Love each other are already in the OT...neat eh?
oh right only these 4 listed...so we can worship another god...make idols...take His name in vain...LIE...(obviously as you are doing so) NOT honor our parents...hmmm eat anything human flesh even and its blood? James didnt conclude that in Act 15 but they would hear more of Moses every Sabbath...and unlike rebellious and uncircumcised hearts like you and yours but because of their Gratitude Faith and Belief they would WANT to keep more of His works...His ways...certainly try....
But only keeping 4....How does this set us apart from the world? A peculiar people? Holy...pure...His doing His will...
even the pagans keep the four listed...muslims and Buddhist...jews too...etc...how they love their neighbor and do no harm...
is that it then? That is all you want to do for Him?...4 and love as the world loves...no need to represent or be a witness...hated by the world...I mean you would blend right in all nicey nice and caring...so loving...
new refers to covenant not law...and tasting new wine they all rather have the old...
to do good...but not keep the Sabbath...lol...So which works were prepared for us to do...the Father’s works or the Son’s?
Recreated in Him but not to follow Him and do as He did...to love as He did...not to at least try...
Paul was clear nothing against the customs Moses handed down did he do or preach others to do...copy me he said as I copy Christ...
He even told the goyim crowding the Synagogues “come back next Sabbath to hear more”...notice he didnt say “come back tomorrow when we turn bread into flesh on resurrection sunday memorials”...prolly cuz they were not doing that...
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Yes, God's Kingdom, as Jesus revealed its last updated image, is lawless. But the kingdoms on earth should be run always by laws.
In fact, all living things are following God's Law since the beginning of Creation. They are all guided by the instructions that are embedded in them already by their Creator; known as instincts for example.
In case of humans, God also inspired (via prophets) some teachings that focus on what is good for the human flesh, so that the addressed people could have a better chance for survival as a disciplined and civilized group and not as free savages in jungles. This was necessary to prepare the coming of Jesus among them.
Jesus, coming directly from Heaven or God's Kingdom, focused instead on how to feed the soul (if one has it besides his living flesh) by living the unconditional love towards all others.
Does someone need a Law while he is ready to love/forgive even his enemies?
But how many in the world can control their flesh's instincts in order to feed their soul by living the unconditional love with all others?
This explains why all Christians Churches/Dominations in the world had to focus on the teachings that are related to the Old Testament while they skip cleverly many teachings of Jesus about love.
By the way, all priests, whom I had the chance to meet in private, told me that they can't repeat in public many Jesus sayings, as clear as Jesus does on the Gospel, because most of their believers will leave, for good, their Churches; starting from the rich ones (and this leads to the loss of big donations).
Unconditional love...like the Buddhists and Hindu and Muslims and Jew and all forms of Christianity practice? Seems like each has certain expectations and corrections built into their love...
But focus...what about that seventh day of rest...made Holy at creation and made for man, all man, not just jews...is that something for you or do you reject it...?