I believe being in Jesus is obeying the Sabbath.
True I believe the same dear friend. So may I ask are we in Christ if we are not believing and following what Jesus says? *John 10:26-27
So when you said 9/10 one is abolished, I do not claim that.
Yet there is no scripture that says Jesus is a Sabbath or that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Do you know dear friend why the church as a whole keeps Sunday today instead of God's 4th commandment and can you show why by the scriptures alone? So far I do not believe you have but I am happy to see what else you may have to share so we can discuss it together in a friendly manner sharing God's Word to be a help to each other so we can both have a closer walk with Jesus.
The Sabbath is a day of rest. It is a ‘type’ of Jesus, like the bronze snake is a type of Jesus, and Israel, and the Passover, and crossing the Jordan, and the washings, and the animal sacrifices, etc.
Actually this is a good topic to explore. Is God's 4th Commandment as "shadow law"? All the others you have provided scripture are from the "shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the law and old covenant *Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 31:26. What we are talking about in God's "seventh day" weekly Sabbath is a day that God himself set aside and "blessed" and made as a "holy day" for all mankind of which Jesus is the creator or Lord of *Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Mark 2:27-28.
While I agree that many of the laws for remission of sins are shadow laws (burnt offereings; sin offerings, Levitical Priesthood, ceremonial sanctuary laws, annual feastivals etc), God's 10 commandments are the work of God alone, written with the finger of God alone and given and spoken by God alone to His people *Exodus 32:16; Exodus 20:1-17.
So why is God's 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath that God set aside and "blessed" and made as a "holy day" for all mankind of which Jesus is the creator or Lord of not a "shadow law"?
Well very simply all the "shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the old covenant were given AFTER THE FALL of mankind. They where all without exception given after mankind had sinned and were a part of God's plan of salvation in the old covenant that pointed to God's plan of salvation in JESUS in the new covenant. For example all the sin offering pointed to JESUS as our lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world *John 1:29; Christ is our passover lamb slain for the sins of the whole world *1 Corinthians 5:7. Nearly every "shadow law for remission of sins including the Levitical Priesthood and the Sanctuary ceremonial laws were prophetic in nature pointing forward to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant for the redemption of mankind and God's plan of salvation for mans sin and reconciliation with God.
So why exactly is God's 4th commandment weekly Sabbath NOT a SHADOW LAW?
Well because it is the only one of God's 10 commandments that point back to the FINISHED work of God at creation when there was NO SIN and NO plan of salvation because mankind was in perfect harmony with God and walked with God and no plan of salvation was needed or required. So it is impossible for God's plan to be a "shadow law" because "shadow laws" point forward. God's 4th commandment points BACKWARD (REMEMBER) to the FINISHED word of creation.....
EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation
GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [
Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering
to
GENESIS 2:1-3]
This is what the 4th commandment points back to...
GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: because that in it he had RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.
When the Sabbath was made for all mankind there was no sin so it is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" of anything. Can you see this dear GT?
So you really don’t see how Sabbath, the day of REST is about Jesus and not about a day?
Everything is about JESUS. He is the creator of the Sabbath. The God of creation of all things in heaven and earth. He is the Lord of the Sabbath that he created for all mankind before sin and before the need of a plan of salvation for mankinds sin *Mark 2:27-28.
If you are in Jesus then you are not breaking the command.
True dear friend but just the same, if we are
knowingly (not unknowingly) break anyone of God's 10 commandments we are
not in Jesus. We are only in Jesus if we are believing and following what God's Word says by faith that works by a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:6-9. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and just like any one of God's 10 commandments if we knowlingly break it *Acts 17:30-31; James 4:17 then we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. All those who knowingly continue in known unrepentant sin breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments when he gives us the knowledge of his truth, will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *Hebrews 10:26-31. This is why this topic is so important. Many unknowingly break God's 4th commandment because this is what they have been taught by the fallen churches of the world that have departed the pure Word of God. I believe God's people are in every church living up to all the knowledge that God has revealed to them *JOHN 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling his people out wherever they may be back to the pure Word of God. BABYLON has fallen that great mother of Harlots. God is calling his people out and to go out and meet the bridegroom. God's sheep will hear His voice. Those who are not God's sheep will not hear His voice.
The only command that is being broke is you judging others according to a Sabbath day.
He must increase while I must decrease. I do not judge you. We are to judge righteouss judgement. I have only share God's Word. I do not share my words which are not God's but I share His Words that are not mine but God's and it is God's Word that we reject or accept that judge us today as they are the standard of the judgement come judgement day (see John 12:47-48).
Nothing is being mixed up the scriptures state plainly that observing special days which includes the Sabbath is now worthless.
You have provided no scripture that says God's 4th commandment Sabbath has now been abolished dear GT and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day as there is no scripture. What scripture can you point to in detail that I have already by God's word alone shown is not saying what you are claiming it says? I am happy to talk fine detail and the Greek and Hebrew if you like please let me know rather than simply post the scriptures I have already addressed so far.
The Jews were trying to get the Gentile Christian Galatians to OBSERVE THE JEWS SPECIAL DAYS and to get CIRCUMCISED in the flesh. Paul says the judaizers should cut themselves. He also goes to great length to explain about circumcision to the Gentiles and how it is now worthless.
Actually that is not true. We have looked at all the scriptures you have provided in detail and they say no such thing. Did you want to discuss anything that we have discussed already and show me why what I have shared with you from the scriptures is not true? You have simply ignored what I have shared with you from the scriptures at the moment and have not addressed anything I have shared with you or asked you so far and are simply repeating yourself without addressing my posts and scriptures provided as a help. Please dear friend, lets learn from each other in patience and love and respect. Our goal to be as the faithful Bareans to have a closer walk with Jesus with an opened mind to believe and follow what the scriptures say alone. If you want why don't you post your best scripture one at a time and explain in detail what you think it means and let's exaimine the detail together and see if it means what you claim it does? If not what a blessing for both of us if we can better know God's Word to have a closer walk with Jesus? What have you got to lose?
Originally posted by
3rdAngel View Post If you read all of Romans 14 you will see that there is nowhere in Romans 14 that is talking about God's 4th commandment. It is talking about days of eating and not eating (fasting) that men esteem over other days. No mention of the Sabbath there..
Your response...
It’s about eating something the Jews were taught were unclean, and about eating meat, or not eating meat. It’s about days, just as the Sabbath is a day. It is warning against the very thing that you are doing.
Romans 14 says no such thing dear GT. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14. People that use this scripture try to read the Sabbath into Romans 14 but if you study the chapter honestly and pratyerfully you will see this is not the topic of conversation. Let's look at the detail....
Now please show us where in any of these scriptures God's WORD is talking about God's 4th Commandment. Your trying your best to read into the scriptures something that they are not talking about. The CONTEXT that you leave out of v5 and v6 read this way.
ROMANS 14:1-22
[1], Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2], For
one believes that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eats herbs.
[3],
Let not him that eats despise him that eats not; and
let not him which eats not judge him that eats: for God has received him.
[4],
Who are you that judge another man's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5], One
man esteems one day above another: another
esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6],
He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord; and
he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it.
He that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eats not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks.
[7], For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself.
[8], For whether we live, we live to the Lord; and whether we die, we die to the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9], For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10],
But why do you judge your brother? or
why do you set at nothing your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
[11], For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12], So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[13],
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[14], I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus,
that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteems any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[15],
But if your brother be grieved with your meat, now walk you not charitably.
Destroy not him with your meat, for whom Christ died.
[16], Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[17], For the kingdom of God is not
meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[19], Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things with which one may edify another.
[20],
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eats with offense.
[21],
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.
[22], Have you faith? have it to yourself before God. Happy is he that comdemns not himself in that thing which he allows.
[23], And
he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatever is not of faith is sin.
Some points to consider in Romans 14:1-15
[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on
[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (
Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13;
Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [
Matthew 9:14;
Mark 2:18;
Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]
[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of
Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of
Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of
Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[7]
Romans 14 is in the context of
Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in
Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments
[8]
Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with
1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (
Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (
Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (
Romans 7:7;
1 John 3:4)
[9] the entire context of
Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin: Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (
2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken,
John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (
Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in
Romans 14
[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (
Genesis 2:1-3;
Exodus 20:8-11) in
Hebrews 3-4, etc.
[13]
Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (
Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (
Psalms 111:7).
[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in
Romans 14
[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in
Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use
Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".
[17] nobody uses
Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day
[18] anyone who quotes
Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances
....................
CONCLUSION: ROMANS 14 is talking about eating and not eating connected to days that men esteem over other days, not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.
LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves
before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for
that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
There is no mention in all of
ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment of any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.
God bless.
.............
PS GT, I believe this one post here addresses everything you have said in your othere posts I have looked at as this post deals with your premise that the Sabbath is a "shadow law" for which this is impossible as shown from the scriptures above. If you disagree and would like me to address anything you have provided in detail from the other posts, please let me know in case you think I have missed something? I believe your arguments mainly fall down in the other posts as your premise is that the Sabbath is a "shadow" law. I have addressed that in detail from the scriptures in this post proving that it is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a shadow of anything as it was made before sin and law shown through the scriptures above. Please address this post and show me if you believe I have missed something?
Thanks GT I am enjoying our discussion as well. Accept I cannot edit my posts (don't know why) :wave2:
