Reconciled to God How?
- Thread starter beloved57
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Yes. Scripture says so in many places. God knows each of us before we are born. He chose each of His children long ago. Scripture indicates that the future reconciliation is not in question as far as God is concerned. God's love is basically unconditional.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
1:5 In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
All of this happens long before any person first believes in Christ (and even that, I believe, is an act of grace...otherwise it's too much like a work, like someone saving him or herself).
To give greater glory to God, I do not believe God determines every single evil thing that people do, but God clearly made everyone a certain way and predestined every human being.
Of course, Christ's atoning blood is absolutely essential. And Paul makes it clear that, despite having always been chosen, he is still struggling, and he advises the Believers in Ephesians 5:15 to "be very careful, then, how you live". It seems to me that Scripture consistently shows the elect unstoppably growing in holiness. But it seems there is still an old self and new self, at least for a time (Ephesians 4:20-24), with the new self being perhaps the true self for God's children?
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Yes. I personally would not use the word 'absurd,' out of respect for God and the the sense of the fullness of his love expressed in Scripture. Nor is the issue vital to how the Believer should act in this life (out of radical love and denial of self, though this is really God working in us).
But from a purely logical and technical standpoint I agree with you.
Here are a few reasons why:
1. While on earth, it may be that Jesus did not know everything that was to happen to the degree that the Father does. But he taught that some were ultimately going to eternal punishment.
2. Romans 9, at least in the translation I'm using, states that some are destined for destruction. As long as this is true for one person, then Christ did not die for all.
I'm sure you've often had people bring up Romans 5:18-19, which has the phrase "justification that brings life for all men" and then in the next verse uses the term "the many."
I think there are ways to reconcile this with the verses that speak of predestination. Perhaps it's a matter of translation? Or perhaps it's that, yes, life was made available to all in some sense, and though all might be able to witness and experience it, not all are spiritually able to possess it?
There are a couple strains expressed in Scripture in regards to determinism, and I do not believe the Believer has to completely reconcile them in order to have eternal life or teach authentically. For example, there's the question of why we are encouraged to makes requests and pray for others if much is predestined. There's the question of why and in what sense God predestines some for destruction if God's love is also vast, powerful, ultimate, and unequaled (which it is). I don't hold that one must or necessarily can reconcile these questions in this life.
beloved57
Well-known member
thborne
Thats the difference between me and you, those are reasons why I use the word absurd, out of respect to God and the fulllness of His Love in Christ !
False, nothing in scripture about Life being made available, neither is Rom 5:18 stating that, not by a long shot.
Thats the difference between me and you, those are reasons why I use the word absurd, out of respect to God and the fulllness of His Love in Christ !
False, nothing in scripture about Life being made available, neither is Rom 5:18 stating that, not by a long shot.
Maybe I'm wrong.
I long to see someone look unflinchingly at Scripture...who can reconcile predestination and love in Scriptural Truth. I am hoping you are such a person.
Yes, the above is an interesting difference between us. Is it really important beyond the personal, however, if we both believe the same underlying truths? I still think we might, as long as the Calvinist and determinist positions you are advancing are Scriptural and thus simply the Truth...and If I am in error, I hope that this discussion is the means that I may be brought to any essential truth I am missing.
What do you think the fullness of God's love in Christ is? One reason many people find Biblical predestination difficult is that they think it goes against what they see as God's love. They find it hard to reconcile with other verses, like Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
But there isn't any contradiction. The sinner does not have to have free will in order for someone to be able to rejoice over this huge change in them.
What do you think predestination is? You could argue that it is simply God using His right to make each person holy or doomed in order to show His glory, and Romans Chapter 9 makes it clear that God does this and has the right to do this. And I agree with that. But is there another dimension to it? Has God perhaps also done what He has in many cases because this is the best possible world? And we can't understand how, because we can't look ahead and see the big picture like God can?
I agree, life is not available to all.
Maybe I was being too vague or mystical earlier. Or just wondering aloud. Just trying to reconcile the phrase "all men". Like I said, maybe it's a type of translation error. Or something we can't yet fully understand.
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God's Truth
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What Calvinists teach, there is no such thing anywhere in the Bible, nowhere.
God does not save unbelievers, period.
The Calvinists must make it that God saves unbelievers and causes them supernaturally to believe. That goes against the scriptures where God tells us to believe.
Again, nowhere anywhere do the scriptures say God saves unbelievers.
In my humble opinion, there are many true Believers who call themselves 'Calvinists' who honor God by emphasizing his sovereignty. Anyone who follows Scripture really deeply is something of a Calvinist, as well as something of a Dispensationalist, and a born-again, and simply a gentle loving saved elect Child of God.
I am not clear about what some Calvinists teach about God's love and about the origins of sin, but I need to learn more before this.
It is a challenge to understand how God's sovereignty, predestination, His awesome and ultimate love, God's grace, and Paul's call to belief and action all come together.
I think it has something to do with God's knowing his beloved children before they were created.
But maybe I just haven't been give the full answer because I'm not one of the elect. Or I didn't truly believe on the day when I believed (but if there's any hope for me, please help me, through God's grace, if you have the answer, whoever you are out there)
Amen!
What beloved57 is saying here is totally in line with Scripture and in acknowledgment of God's Grace.
God's Truth
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One must be a believing sinner that repents of their sins.
God's Truth
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God does not save UNBELIEVERS and UNREPENTANT sinners. That is what the scriptures say.
Nanja
Well-known member
The Elect, those Christ died for, are reconciled to God while unconverted and enemies.
Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
God's Truth
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How do you get it is emphasizing God's sovereignty to preach not to believe and obey God because you can't?
The Bible says that Satan ensnares people to preach false doctrines!
I hope that you do consider more carefully what it is you already defend but admit you don't know.
God knowing beforehand who will believe and love Him is NOT predestination.
I would like to help you. I understand that you are searching for God and His Truth, and not man's truth. I will tell you how to find out.
God's Truth
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Your Calvinist teachers taught you wrong. That scripture is about ALL GENTILES who are saved are saved while they were enemies of God that did not get CIRCUMCISED in the flesn!
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
beloved57
Well-known member
You may as well said that God does not save sinners.
Romans 8:28 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he knew he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
So predestination is real. One has to face this and embrace this.
God knows those who are going to repent through his grace and they are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ.
I have discovered however that I need to turn to God and pray over and study what is the Truth and plain reading of Romans 9.
On a partially unrelated note... Why does God want to save? What is the nature of this awesome love that is behind any salvation of sinners?
Because that's what everything comes back to.
God's Truth
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Words matter and you can't add to the Bible.
God's Truth
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You were taught wrong about that scripture by a Calvinist.
That scripture is about the Jews whom God FOREKNEW. See Romans 1:20-22, Romans 11:14, Romans 10:21, Romans 11:31,
Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
So from all those scriptures you can see that those whom God foreknew are the JEWS.
As for predestined, it is about the plan to be saved through Jesus; the scripture you quoted about being foreknown and predestined is about Paul reassuring the Gentiles that God did not cut off the Jews forever, and how they are able to be saved just as the Gentiles.
Please consider carefully the scriptures and I hope I have helped.