Rejecting an idea that is clearly based on nonsense is, well, a suggestion of intelligent thought.
Christian Zionism
- Thread starter Theo102
- Start date
Rejecting an idea that is clearly based on nonsense is, well, a suggestion of intelligent thought.
Not my problem that you don't understand it.
Showing that there's an association between Abraham's age when Isaac was born and Sarah's interaction with YHWH regarding Isaac and the meaning of Isaac's name isn't silly.
There a many meaningful associations in the text which are not explained by the text.
genuineoriginal
New member
I tried to find out who the author of the article in the OP is, and ended up on David Duke's website (David Duke is a famous KKK member)
I do not know if Chuck Carlson has any relationship with the White Supremacists that David Duke is part of, but they seem to like what he says.
When I look at the history of the Jewish people, I see that they were exiled from the land of Israel, exactly as prophesied by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, they were scattered among the nations and persecuted, exactly as prophesied in Deuteronomy 28, and that they were gathered from the nations, exactly as prophesied in Isaiah 54, and the nation of Israel became a nation in a single day
To me, that is either the most unbelievable coincidence or it is a literal fulfillment of prophecy in our time.
I don't believe in coincidences of that magnitude, especially when it comes to the fulfillment of prophecy.
I do not know if Chuck Carlson has any relationship with the White Supremacists that David Duke is part of, but they seem to like what he says.
| Charles E. Carlson On Re-Educating 'Christian' Zionists The apostasy of the Christian Zionist churches can be described in one line; it believes that political Israel is the fulfillment of Biblical Prophesy. Followers of Christ believe Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. Jews quite naturally believe Jesus did not exist, or if he did exist, was a clever pretender who came to a bad end. Christian Zionism melds the two views into one ugly hodge-podge. It is wrong; it is a disease, it is a cult. |
When I look at the history of the Jewish people, I see that they were exiled from the land of Israel, exactly as prophesied by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, they were scattered among the nations and persecuted, exactly as prophesied in Deuteronomy 28, and that they were gathered from the nations, exactly as prophesied in Isaiah 54, and the nation of Israel became a nation in a single day
| Isaiah 66:8 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. |
To me, that is either the most unbelievable coincidence or it is a literal fulfillment of prophecy in our time.
I don't believe in coincidences of that magnitude, especially when it comes to the fulfillment of prophecy.
There's a difference between the children of the desolate of Isaiah 54 and the goyim that they inherit.
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations[goyim], to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isaiah 66:19
To distinguish between them you should know what the sign is.
Citizenship within the Zionist state is based on religion, but the beneficiaries of the covenants of the land (Genesis 15 & 17) are based on ancestry.
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:9
genuineoriginal
New member
The Law of Return is based upon ancestry, not upon religion, unless a Jewish person voluntarily converts away from Judaism to follow another religion.
(A Jewish person who voluntarily converts away from Judaism would have no reason for wanting to be a citizen in the land that God gave the children of Israel as an everlasting possession.)
I believe God will fulfill all the promises that He made to the children of Israel.
There are promises that remain unfulfilled.
If you believe that God broke His promises to the children of Israel, then there is no reason for you to pretend to believe God will keep His promises to Christians.
If you believe that all of God's prophecies about the children of Israel have already been fulfilled, then tell me the date and historic event when Zechariah 14:3 was fulfilled.
| Zechariah 14:1-3 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. |
Yes, it's possible for a descendant of Jacob to be cut off from his people. Persons are the entities which the state interacts with, people and persons do not have the same intangible substance. This is borne out by the etymology of "person" from mask and from pan (translated as person in the KJV) as face (Deuteronomy 10:17).
Citizenship is a relationship with the state, and the return to the promised land is associated with a kingdom, not a state.
genuineoriginal
New member
There are two indisputable facts you seem to be trying to gloss over.
- Modern day Israel is the same land of Canaan that God promised to give to the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as an everlasting possession.
- The modern Jews are able to trace their ancestry in an unbroken line all the way to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all twelve (thirteen) tribes.
No, Israel is a people, the land of Israel is something different. The lost tribes of Israel exist, although they are generally unaware of their identity. Herzl's Jewish state uses the name of Israel as cover for its crimes.
No, some modern Jews are Ashkenazi, and they're not even semites, let alone descendants of Jacob. Also Edomite Jews are not descendants of Jacob. There are only twelve tribes, Dan isn't listed among the twelve, and Ephraim and Manasseh replace Joseph.
True Tziyown is associated with King David. Political Zionism was and is supported by terrorists like Menachem Begin, who was involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel.
genuineoriginal
New member
I use the terms "children of Israel" for the people and usually use "the land of promise" for the land.
The land of promise is the land that God promised to give to the children of Israel as an everlasting possession.
You seem to think that the children of Israel that returned to the land of promise during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah are not really the children of Israel.
Ezra 2 lists children of Israel from all thirteen tribes, not just the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.
You also seem to think that the Jewish communities that remained in Babylon were not really the children of Israel.
The problem with your idea is that the children of Israel maintained genealogies that showed which tribe they were descended from.
There are reasons that the children of Israel were persecuted in every nation that they lived in during the Diaspora.
- To ensure that they remembered that they did not serve God as commanded
- To keep them separated from the nations so they would remember that their homeland was the land of promise
- To keep strangers from stealing their identity because nobody would want to undergo that kind of persecution in order to lie about being a Jew
All that for no reason at all and with no scriptural support for those foolish notions.
What crimes?
genuineoriginal
New member
The Ashkenazi and Edomite Jews that you claim are not real Jews are descended from the Jews that returned to the land of promise during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah as well as the Jews that lived in the Babylonian communities during the first-third centuries.
These Jews wrote the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud to deal with trying to live by the Torah without a Temple to worship God in.
If you knew more about Jewish history, you would not be making false statements about who is and who is not one of the children of Israel.
What's your source for that?
genuineoriginal
New member
Keeping track of genealogy has been very important to many Jewish communities since the Babylonian captivity and that has continued to this very day.
Here is an anecdotal accounts of the difference between Christian genealogical records and Jewish genealogical records.
| Jewish Genealogy: What is Possible? THERE ARE MORE RECORDS THAN YOU THINK Allow me one brief tangent: I do a great deal of work with early 19th-century New York City genealogy. One of the greatest challenges is the limited number of vital records (births, marriages, deaths). If an ancestor—typically Christian—did not belong to a church where their baptism or marriage was recorded, I’m left with limited options. I have even fewer paths forward if the person was female. By contrast, many Jewish communities were lousy with vital records (as in, there were tons). |
There is also this from an organization that specializes in genealogy
| Ackman & Ziff Family Genealogy Institute How far back do Jewish records go? Up to the 20th century, Jewish communities all over the world had an autonomous record-keeping tradition that stretched back to the Middle Ages. These local archives documented all aspects of life that were regulated by the Jewish community’s leadership, known as the kehillah or kahal, namely religion, education, communal arbitration, finance, and social welfare. Thus, the archive of a particular Jewish community may contain anything from marriage contracts, circumcision registers, and cemetery plot maps to business/property contracts, tax lists, court proceedings, and more. The oldest surviving community records come from the Sephardic and Mizrahi world, as early as the 10th century in Egypt, the 12th century in Spain, and the 13th century in Italy and Portugal. Jewish community records date back to 14th century in parts of Western and Central Europe (namely, France, Germany, and the former Czechoslovakia) and to the 15th and 16th centuries in much of Eastern Europe. Please note that the earliest dates of surviving Jewish community records listed above only apply to a selective group of towns within those regions; it is important to keep in mind that the extent of the survival, physical condition, and accessibility of Jewish community records varies widely from place to place. For example, in many parts of the Sephardic and Mizrahi world not mentioned above, the local archives are highly fragmentary and date back no further than the 19th century. In addition, tracing one’s ancestors in early Ashkenazi Jewish community records is severely hindered by the fact that most Ashkenazi families did not adopt surnames until the late 18th to mid-19th centuries. In contrast to the records maintained by Jewish communities themselves, the separate registration of Jews in government-mandated vital records (i.e. birth, marriage, and death registers) and population records (e.g. censuses) is a relatively recent phenomenon. |
How do you claim descent from Levi?
That doesn't support you claim that Ashkenazi and Edomite Jews are descended from Jews of the time of Ezra and Nehemiah and the Babylonian communities.
Last edited:
It's a tradition in our family. It comes with some honors in the synagogue.
You do realise that sometimes traditions have no relationship to the truth, right?
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
P.S. RationalWiki is usually wrong, but they're right about this.
Perhaps. But that's what tribes and religions are about. And I do not expect or need others to accept my traditions.
Now, back to your ideas: You really think that the Jews are not Jews, and the British are the Real Jews?