Union with Christ before believing in Him !

Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !
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Jesus words in John 15 were addressed to his disciples, to those who already believed in Him and were following Him. Of these He says

“The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. ...” (John 13:10)

So, contrary to your claim, He was not talking to anyone who was not already believing in Him. These only are joined to Him. No one who does not YET believe has eternal life abiding in him. They will not UNTIL they believe (John 3:16).

"Without me you can do nothing" is not an expression of the false doctrine of inability. Rather it stresses the need for our dependence upon him. It is not saying that we sit passively by and wait for Him to compel us through a unilateral exercise of divine power. Just because we cannot be fruitful without Him does not mean we cannot be fruitful by yielding ourselves to Him.

"Abide" means to "remain and continue," (in Him). You cannot remain or continue in something you have not yet begun to be in. You cannot remain in a house you have never moved into in the first place. So this could not apply to anyone who has not already come into relationship with Christ through faith. Not even the elect have a relationship with Him before they have faith.

The verb "abide" is in the imperative mood which makes it a command. Commands demand the compliance of our wills. Implicit in a command is the possibility that the subject may opt to disobey or ignore the command. It is nonsensical to command a rock to remain where it is when it lacks the power of movement.

As for your other reference, a person has to partake of the Bread of Life in order to have life. No one has life BEFORE they partake. Likewise no one enjoys the benefits of His blood BEFORE he has entered into a covenant with Him.

You make people saved before they believe, cleansed before they are in covenant with Him, which contradicts the evangelical call for men to repent and believe in order to be saved.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Bright Raven said:
There is no union with Christ before believing in him. Post scripture!
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It is as if he were trying to take the point of view of timelessness where past present and future are all one and a person is both saved and not saved at the same moment.
 
R

RBBI

New member
They are His, and He obviously died for them too, but they have not received the adoption that sons receive; so no, they are not joined to Christ yet. The WHOLE garden is His, to do with as He pleases, in His time. Covenants require action on the part of BOTH parties, not just one. Otherwise it's faith without works. Peace
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
RBBI said:
They are His, and He obviously died for them too, but they have not received the adoption that sons receive; so no, they are not joined to Christ yet. The WHOLE garden is His, to do with as He pleases, in His time. Covenants require action on the part of BOTH parties, not just one. Otherwise it's faith without works. Peace
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Post 35 did you read and understand it?
 
R

RBBI

New member
beloved57 said:
Post 35 did you read and understand it?
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Yes, I did read and understand it. And I agree with you, they are His, but they are asleep without Christ. Read Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares again.

Can you hear this? There were two trees in the midst of the garden. One of them was the golden candlestick, one of them was the table of showbread. If the MIDST of the garden was for the priests only (holy place) but the outer court was for all, even the "God-fearers" strangers from Israel, THEN THE WHOLE GARDEN IS HIS.

Costing you something, isn't it? Blessings and Peace
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
RBBI said:
Yes, I did read and understand it. And I agree with you, they are His, but they are asleep without Christ. Read Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares again.

Can you hear this? There were two trees in the midst of the garden. One of them was the golden candlestick, one of them was the table of showbread. If the MIDST of the garden was for the priests only (holy place) but the outer court was for all, even the "God-fearers" strangers from Israel, THEN THE WHOLE GARDEN IS HIS.

Costing you something, isn't it? Blessings and Peace
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Please review the points in the post with me to see if you understand them!
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Are those Christ died for in Union with Him before they believe ? The answer to this very important question is absolutely YES, for there did and must have been a Union between Himself and them He died for, or their could not have been any just and legal grounds for Him to have died for their sins, no grounds for their sins to have been charged to His account, and such scriptures as these would be invalid and without legal warrant 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

Now understand, this Union between them and Him had to be and was just as real and legally binding as it was for them in Adam, since if they were not really legally in Adam when he sinned, then they could not have sinned with him as it is surely indicated in Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All men sinned in and by Adams One sin, death passed upon all men because of Adams sinned,

or better yet they could not have been made sinners by Adams one act of disobedience as indicated here Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This could not have justly occurred apart from a legal union recognized by the Jude of all the earth, God !

Paul writes that all die IN ADAM 1 Cor 15:22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The word in here is a prep that means:

en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

This denotes a Union in Adam, in that Union all died with Adam !

But in antithesis all in Christ shall be made alive, So all in Christ legally shall be made alive; Now we have already showed that in order for Christ to have died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3, He had to be in a Legal binding Union with Us, as it was likewise with us in Adam, and such Union constituted us as being In Christ, as no less as being in Adam, and because of being in Christ legally for Him to die for us, there can never be from God legally any condemnation charged to us, Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those of Us Christ died for, sin cannot and will not be charged or imputed to us Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Not to impute sin is not to impute condemnation as well !

So, if there was no Union with Christ before Faith, Christ's death could not have been for us, and faith in Christ would be in vain or to no avail with God !
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Amen, there must be an Eternal Union in Christ before Faith!


All that were chosen in Union with Christ, the Federal Head of His Church,
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4, are the same all
who were originally in Adam their natural federal head;
that died in Adam when he sinned.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


So only the Church, who were originally chosen in union with Christ,
were in union with Adam their Federal Head.


It was only after Adam sinned that all the rest of humanity,
those that the devil sowed into the world Mat. 13:38-39,
the condemned world 1 Cor. 11:32, the reprobates, were added to his posterity.

~~~~~
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Amen, there must be an Eternal Union in Christ before Faith!


All that were chosen in Union with Christ, the Federal Head of His Church,
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4, are the same all
who were originally in Adam their natural federal head;
that died in Adam when he sinned.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


So only the Church, who were originally chosen in union with Christ,
were in union with Adam their Federal Head.


It was only after Adam sinned that all the rest of humanity,
those that the devil sowed into the world Mat. 13:38-39,
the condemned world 1 Cor. 11:32, the reprobates, were added to his posterity.

~~~~~
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Amen, you have understood correctly, that is the Lords doing, for it's Him that gives us Understanding!
 
R

RBBI

New member
What you're seeing is the FIRSTFRUITS, that were joined unto Him as the Alpha, returning as the Omega. But it's every man in his own order after that. Saviors arise on Mt. Zion because there are still those that need to be saved. The Lord always works with a firstfruits any time He is getting ready to make a change.

The tares are not men, but the seeds of darkness planted in all men, while Adam slept. The world (earthen vessels) is where the good seed (Christ) is planted. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God?

HaShem put him to sleep, but you cannot find where He woke him up, until you read, Arise and shine (shake off the dust) and Christ will give thee light....Peace
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
If someone can be in eternal union with Christ before believing the Gospel, then many "lost" are actually saved. That makes B57 wrong when he says many of us here on TOL are lost because he can't know that...it could be that Christ just hasn't fully opened our eyes and converted us to Calvinism yet.

So next time B57 says, "You don't believe that!" just say, "Maybe God will make me, so stop judging."
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
dialm said:
God only saves those people whom He wants to save. The rest are lost.
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That is right.

God saves only those He wants to save. See John 5:21.

God saves those whom He is pleased to save.

Who pleases God?

Those who please God are those who fear Him and do what is right. See Acts 10:35.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
When have I ever said otherwise? I've always believed in repentance because that's what Paul preached (Acts 17:30-31; 26:20).

Our disagreement is on what repent means, how one does it, and why.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
musterion said:
When have I ever said otherwise? I've always believed in repentance because that's what Paul preached (Acts 17:30-31; 26:20).

Our disagreement is on what repent means, how one does it, and why.
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Repent does NOT just mean to believe!

Repent means to be sorry for your sins and stop doing them!
 
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