Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)

Choleric · Oct 8, 2012

Daedalean's_Sun said:
Much of what you believe is interpretation. You have no guarantee what you teach isn't "another gospel".

Sure I do, I have the bible that clearly teaches that Jesus is God, that Paul's apostleship was genuine and that salvation is a free gift.

Please pick one if you would like clarification from Scripture.

Nick M · Oct 8, 2012

retard77 said:
Great. The reintroduction of the ego driven pompous "anyone who doesn't agree with my theology" is a heretic bunk...

:yawn:

Yet you needed to comment on it.

Arthur Brain · Oct 8, 2012

Choleric said:
Yes, the bible is at odds with many, that is why they are called heretics. I dedicate a thread to it as to warn others by "marking" those who teach error. I wish I would have had this list when I first joined this forum. I didn't know there were so many heresies in the world. I had quite a few long, frustrating conversations with people, only to learn days later that they were teaching false doctrine. Had I had this list, I would have been able to avoid that.

Which again, is just a convoluted way of saying that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the bible(s) is a heretic.

It is not intended to invite any dischord, it is intended to mark heretics as a warning to others who may be harmed by their false teaching.

Which again = the above.

SD stands for truth, which is not pliable and is easily discernible by reading and believing the bible, which the Laodecian church has great trouble with.

:rotfl:

You have got to be kidding?! Have you seen her sig for cryin' out loud? She blatantly lies about people in it and is generally regarded here as off the planet from all 'sides'. She consistently delects away from answering direct questions, supports 'burning prostitutes alive' and generally acts like a completel troll. She stands for 'truth' in the same way the KKK stand for racial equality. Get a grip...

This statement is a direct result of the apostasy of the modern church. All truth is based on your "interpretation" of some extra biblical writing and some extant manuscript that you think is the way the bible "should" be worded.

Eh? I'm asking you what you know about the original translations not some extra biblical texts....

I know quite a bit about the early manuscripts, having studied the topic a great deal. I know that the KJV agrees with 99% of existing manuscript evidence. I don't need to worry about the 1%, although many new bibles today are translated based on that 1% and are therefore, in the minority and are in error.

Where are you getting this notion that the KJV is the most 'inerrant' form of the bible exactly? Cite? Why is that any more accurate than a literal concordance such as 'Young's'?

Why in the world would I waste my time researching schools of thought on the matter? Why would I have reason to doubt what the bible says? I understand the temptation to do so, as I don't particularly like what I read there either, and I wish it wasn't so. But I am not going to go fishing for some "alternate meaning" to something so plainly taught just because I find it uncomfortable.

Uh, these were the original translators of the original texts which inform the bible, and 'eternal torment' was very much the minority viewpoint. If you can't be bothered to do proper research into the matter of how such doctrines came about then you're in no position to offer any criticism of such frankly.

THat is what most people do. They find something they don't like in the bible, then find an excuse to erase that passage from their bible, or at least change the words a bit to say what they think it ought to say. Nobody benefits from that and it leads to heresy and eventually apostasy, which is what we have in the modern church.

As ^

Sure thing. When a lost person dies, they go to hell, which is a prison, or holding ground for those who die without Christ. At the end of the millenium, the dead in hell will be resurrected in bodily form and will stand before the great white throne of God for judgment. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point and eventually hell itself, which is a giant prison in the center of the earth, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Where are you getting this concept that hell is in the centre of the earth?! Cite? :AMR:

The lake of fire is not in hell, and is not the same as hell. This is pretty simple stuff. Allow me to give it to you in chronological order using Scripture:

Considering I never said they were the same or that the lake of fire was somehow in hell I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up....:liberals:

All people are appointed to a day of judgement:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The church will be raptured out prior to the Great Tribulation/ The church is told it will be kept from the "hour that is to come":

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Then there will be the great tribulation, which will last 7 years. At the end of that, those tribulation saints will be raptured/resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The millenium begins, and the devil is bound in the bottomless pit (not the lake of fire) for the whole thousand years and at the end is released one last time:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:

The unsaved dead, remain in hell for the full thousand years of the millenium:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

After the thousand years, the devil is loosed and the final war takes place:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It is at this point that the devil is cast into the lake of fire:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

notice the "beast and false prophet" are already there. They were cast into the lake of fire after the 7 year tribulation as we see in this verse:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

At this point the rest of the dead are raised to stand before God and be judged "according to their works", which is how all unsaved people will be judged:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are all found to be guilty of being law breakers and are sentenced to the lake of fire, and at this point, hell is empty and it too is cast into the lake of fire with death:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If you notice the order of events, the lake of fire appears at the end of God's prophetic program, not at the beginning or middle. This is easy if we simply believe what we read.

'Simply believe what we read'? So I guess you find nothing allegorical about any of the above then?

Why would I replace God's word with my opinion or fanciful imagination? That is foolish and only an arrogant person would attempt such a thing.

Almost as arrogant as claiming those who ascribe to a different belief to your own are being 'arrogant and fanciful'....

No, but you would be like those who reject Paul...you would be attempting to get to heaven by being "good enough" instead of obeying Romans 10:3.

That's garbage. My former church didn't place such emphasis on Paul and it didn't teach you had to be 'good enough' via works or some such either.

Far too basic. What is the good news? Is it that a man named Jesus came to earth to tell you about God (which is what those who deny the deity of Christ teach). Is it to tell you that you can work for your own salvation? (which is what those that teach salvation by works teach and is what those that reject Paul teach).

Funny how you don't like complication where it comes to proper research and understanding and yet 'good news' is something altogether different.

You have to allow the Scripture to define what the good news is.

Well in your case it pretty amounts to 'you're all hellbound but the good news is there's a way out'.

lain:

He did.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Aside from that, Jesus mentioned hell quite plainly and thoroughly. You can only deny hell if you deny a large portion of your bible:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I could list dozens of verses where Jesus spoke of hell. This is pretty simple stuff. And attempting to explain it away by claiming somebody didn't believe Jesus' words 1900 years ago doesn't change anything at all. People haven't believed the bible for 4000 years, there is nothing new under the sun.

Again, if you've not researched the original texts and translations regarding 'hell' and 'eternal' in any objective manner etc then you're just not interested in intellectual honesty on the matter. You are familiar with hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus right? And as before, Paul does not make make express mention of 'hell' in his own words anywhere.

By God's eternal wisdom, His message has caught on quite well I would say.

Ok....

Yes, "ye are saved by grace though faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" is pretty easy to understand and repeat. As is "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. " Rom 11:6

You either believe it and get saved, or deny Pauls apostleship and get to work. But that will end you in the lake of fire.

Not sure where even this consigns someone to your eternal torment. If altruistic works send folk to it then aye, that makes sense....

lain: I reckon an omnipotent loving God would take the failities of His human creations into account.

Paul did and so did the Creator of the Universe and our Savior Jesus Christ. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?

Um, nope, and my points have been reiterated earlier. If you consider hell to be some 'prison cell' in the centre of the earth and lake of fire to be a literal burning lake then in regards to the former: :AMR: and in regards to the latter you're obviously not very familiar with allegory....

You said you werent interested in marking others. You are essentially admitting to refusing to obey a command of Scripture. I guess you excuse yourself from such activity on the account that "Paul must have been having a bad day". It is ok if you don't feel it is your calling, but don't argue with those of us who obey.

Eh, if it was Jim Jones or David Koresh I'd have no problem with calling them on out on their insanity. Compiling a list of people who have differing takes on theology on an internet forum? Aye, soooooo effective. You just do more damage to anyone looking in so well done....

lain:

Again, if you want to stand for nothing, that is fine with me, but don't take issue because I obey a direct command in an attempt to help others. Hell is a real place where real people go for a real eternity. Jesus said so, you can choose to ignore Him, but it isn't very wise...lain::nono:

I stand for plenty thanks, and what I ignore is blinkered fundamentalist doctrine. Ironically you're even going against yourself if you think 'the holding cell in the centre of the earth' lasts for ever....:doh:

:first:

You can't same the same about Scrabble though....

Arthur Brain · Oct 8, 2012

Nick M said:
Yet you needed to comment on it.

Apparently in the same way you apparently 'needed' to comment on my own post.

Irony isn't in your vocab is it Nick?

Choleric · Oct 8, 2012

Arthur Brain said:
Which again, is just a convoluted way of saying that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the bible(s) is a heretic.

Not convoluted at all. Just pretty straightforward. If you disagree with me on the three specific topics the list covers, then you are a heretic. That is easily defended by Scripture. Unless you want to tell me you don't think Jesus is God. Or that you have to earn heaven, or that Paul's 13 letters don't belong in the bible. Of course, you can't prove any of those things using the bible. It is impossible.

Which again = the above.

Fair enough and guilty as charged...

Eh? I'm asking you what you know about the original translations not some extra biblical texts....

What about them? Are you going to produce a bible translation that eliminates all mention of hell? What are you attempting to say? Just cough it up already...

Where are you getting this notion that the KJV is the most 'inerrant' form of the bible exactly? Cite? Why is that any more accurate than a literal concordance such as 'Young's'?

Let's not derail the topic at hand, but suffice it to say I believe the KJV is superior to any bible on earth.

But that being said, you cannot produce a single bible translation in any language that eliminates hell.

Uh, these were the original translators of the original texts which inform the bible, and 'eternal torment' was very much the minority viewpoint. If you can't be bothered to do proper research into the matter of how such doctrines came about then you're in no position to offer any criticism of such frankly.

Again, why would I care what viewpoint some old person held? I am perfectly capable, and personally responsible, for reading and understanding the bible for myself. And in doing so, it is abundantly clear that hell is real, as is the lake of fire and real people go there for all eternity if they are not saved.

As ^

What is that supposed to mean. I show you clear scripture that speak of hell and eternal torment and you are attempting to do away with it on conjecture and "old people's opinions". Why not use the bible and tell me Jesus was lying or that He misspoke or that eternal doesn't mean eternal. Good luck with that :thumb:

Where are you getting this concept that hell is in the centre of the earth?! Cite? :AMR:

Have you ever read the bible? I could fill pages. Allow me to cite some passages and give a brief explanation:

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is down

Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Hell is down. Notice the juxtaposition against "exalted to heaven". The opposite of up, is down, up to heaven, down to hell

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus went to paradise, in the heart of the earth after He died. The heart is the center

Isaiah 5:14
“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

Hell is a place people descend into. It is also interesting to note that scientist have noted that the cavity in the center of the earth is expanding, as this passage tells us Hell has enlarged herself. Standing room only I guess...

Ezekiel 31:16
“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”

Again descend

Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”

Need commentary on this one? Under the earth there is fire and that fire is hell.

(Proverb 7:27) "Her house is the way to hell (Sheol), going down to the chambers of death."

(Isaiah 14:15) "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (Sheol), to the sides of the pit."

(Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

all talking about downward

Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the Pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Notice it is down to hell, also called a pit:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

The pit is hell, it is down, it is in the lower parts of the earth, it is in the nether parts of the earth. I could go on and on and on and on. This is very simple if you believe what you read.

Considering I never said they were the same or that the lake of fire was somehow in hell I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up....:liberals:

It appeared you were attempting to prove hell was allegorical by implying the impossibility of hell being thrown into itself. Realizing hell and the lake of fire are in different places clears up the matter. Why else did you ask me to explain it?

'Simply believe what we read'? So I guess you find nothing allegorical about any of the above then?

None whatsoever. I take the bible literally unless it is absolutely impossible to do so. Allegory is vastly over used when reading Scripture, it is far more literal than you realize. Allow me to post a couple verses that beat scientific discovery based on the literal application of seemingly innocuous passages:

Jet Streams: The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago.

Hydrothermal vents were described in Job long before science ever found them out.

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

The fact that the earth is round was shown in Isaiah:

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

There is far more, but this will suffice. The point is the bible is literal almost all of the time and I suggest even more so than the most conservative of us believe.

Almost as arrogant as claiming those who ascribe to a different belief to your own are being 'arrogant and fanciful'....

No, to set aside what the bible clearly says in favor of something outside of the bible is arrogant. Jesus said to fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell. It is very, very arrogant to think you know better than Jesus.

That's garbage. My former church didn't place such emphasis on Paul and it didn't teach you had to be 'good enough' via works or some such either.

Your church may not have emphasised, but they did not exclude Romans through Philemon. Those who think Paul is a heretic, believe that Romans through Philemon should not be in the bible. Don't you understand that? That is a serious accusation.

Funny how you don't like complication where it comes to proper research and understanding and yet 'good news' is something altogether different.

Nope, 100% consistent. I rely 100% on the bible. I don't put my bible down and pick up some old dudes writing and then give that equal weight to the Scripture. If Polycarp thought hell was allegorical, he as dead wrong. It doesn't matter if he lived 1900 years ago.

There is no complication there. Hell is real because the bible says so. Jesus is God because the bible says so. Paul was not a heretic because the bible says so. Salvation is a free gift without works because the bible says so. This is very easy.

Well in your case it pretty amounts to 'you're all hellbound but the good news is there's a way out'. lain:

Exactly!! :thumb:

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Again, if you've not researched the original texts and translations regarding 'hell' and 'eternal' in any objective manner etc then you're just not interested in intellectual honesty on the matter. You are familiar with hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus right? And as before, Paul does not make make express mention of 'hell' in his own words anywhere.

I don't need to do research. Please, pick a topic. Tell me sheol doesn't mean hell, tell me eternal doesn't mean eternal. Please, I am begging you to try to prove either of those with Scripture. You keep hinting around like you have it all figured out, then tell me about it. Stop acting like you "got this" and lay it out there for me.

Not sure where even this consigns someone to your eternal torment. If altruistic works send folk to it then aye, that makes sense....lain: I reckon an omnipotent loving God would take the failities of His human creations into account.

THis doesn 't consign someone to torment, it tells you how to avoid it. And good works can't help you, which is also taught clearly in the bible:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God saves us based on His free gift of imputed righteousness. It is not based on our attempts at earning it or establishing our own goodness whereby we get to a point where we are good enough to be saved.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Many people are ignorant of God's righteousness that He will give (impute) to anyone who comes to Him in faith through His Son. Instead, they try to go around establishing their own righteousness by being good and don't submit themselves to God's righteousness.

Um, nope, and my points have been reiterated earlier. If you consider hell to be some 'prison cell' in the centre of the earth and lake of fire to be a literal burning lake then in regards to the former: :AMR: and in regards to the latter you're obviously not very familiar with allegory....

You have made points but with no substance. You have hinted at "translations" and "study of the terms" but you haven't produced any of it. Scripture clearly demonstrates that people who are lost die and go to hell which is at the center of the earth where they await judgment which all men face according to Heb 9:27. Scripture also clearly teaches that at the end of the millennium the second resurrection occurs and all those stand before God to be judged by their works and are cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.

There is no allegory there. The bible is full of this teaching from beginning to end. You would have to eliminate quite a bit of your bible to believe such a lie. And make no mistake, it is a lie from the father of lies..."hath God said?" It is the oldest lie in the book, LITERALLY.

Eh, if it was Jim Jones or David Koresh I'd have no problem with calling them on out on their insanity. Compiling a list of people who have differing takes on theology on an internet forum? Aye, soooooo effective. You just do more damage to anyone looking in so well done....lain:

I remember when I first came here in 2007, my first lengthy conversation was with GLENDA. She was nice at first and then started challenging me on my salvation based on the free gift of God. As a new believer at the time (days in fact) it was very troublesome to me for the few weeks that we started the conversation. I began to struggle with doubt etc. It was after a couple weeks of the conversation that I realized she completely eliminated all the teaching from Romans to Philemon and I was therefore arguing with someone who had half a new testament.

Interestingly she never offered that information for a long time into our conversation. Had I realized her error from the beginning, I would not have had that issue and could have avoided all the heartache at the start.

That is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to help others avoid. And it is exactly the reason Paul told us to mark heretics, to protect others from wolves in sheeps clothing.

I stand for plenty thanks, and what I ignore is blinkered fundamentalist doctrine. Ironically you're even going against yourself if you think 'the holding cell in the centre of the earth' lasts for ever....:doh:

I never said the holding cell lasts forever. God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. It is also at the end of the millenium when all lost, hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. The new earth will not have a hell.

You can't same the same about Scrabble though....

I like puzzles to give myself some idle time. Sudoku is challenging in a bothersome way. I want to relax. Give me a word find

Pierac · Oct 8, 2012

freelight said:
A while back I messaged Choleric about adding you under my catagory, and even modifying the catagory title, expanding it a bit, since I'm very 'eclectic',...but no response.

It appears hes more interested in the main 'heresies' he deems most important, while we more liberal spiritualists and gnostics of various temperments, and kind of 'low' on the radar screen. I have just enough dangerous knowledge to implicate modern forms of 'Christianity' with a versatility in many other religious philosophies and schools to have apparently earned a place on the list.

To some I'm the resident 'New Ager', 'Universal Mystic'...being a student of universal spirituality, eclectic spiritualist, meta-theist, esotericist, meta-physician, etc. Also the resident 'dharmist' as a very liberal 'hindu' with philosophical roots in the Advaita Vedanta school...but conversant with all schools of 'non-dualism'. The fundamental reality is what is at the base or root of all existence, discovered and realized by the great rishis/sages (realized ones). They discovered the true God-essence in their own hearts...as being non-different from the Universal God-presence, but individualized within.

'God' as absolute reality outshines/transcends any concept or image of a so-called 'Satan' or the 'devil', and 'heresy' is the rightful privilege of a truly responsible person freely choosing to do their own 'thinking' in discerning what is 'real' from what is 'unreal' (right discrimination). This continual vigilence and 'questioning' everything...continues moment to moment.

In-joy,

pj

Sorry Freelight,

But Cholerics' pastor does not speak about liberal spiritualists on Sunday... so he has no way of offering a response either for or against you.... so you kinda get ignored due to his lack of intellectual understanding of your post.

It should be obvious to all that Choleric can only repeat what he hears and thus creates list to compensate for his lack of intellect!

If your on the list... it's because his pastor told him you belong there, nothing more or less in his response! :doh:

The weak minded feel the need to create list so they can feel better about dismissing what they can not intellectually debate! Tambora is very much like this! :readthis:

It's not Choleric's or Tambora's fault... So we should not boast in their limitations but be thankful we were given much much more! Here's to you Choleric for your list! :first: Thank you for making the rest of us look so GOOD!

Peace,
Paul

Arthur Brain · Oct 8, 2012

Choleric said:
Not convoluted at all. Just pretty straightforward. If you disagree with me on the three specific topics the list covers, then you are a heretic. That is easily defended by Scripture. Unless you want to tell me you don't think Jesus is God. Or that you have to earn heaven, or that Paul's 13 letters don't belong in the bible. Of course, you can't prove any of those things using the bible. It is impossible.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of them. I can understand why others see it differently as well however.

Fair enough and guilty as charged...

Ok, good for you.

What about them? Are you going to produce a bible translation that eliminates all mention of hell? What are you attempting to say? Just cough it up already...

Nope, rather the interpretation of what 'hell' actually is. You must surely be familiar with how it's referred to as the grave? Well guess what, everyone 'visits' the place.

Let's not derail the topic at hand, but suffice it to say I believe the KJV is superior to any bible on earth.

Why? Based on what?

But that being said, you cannot produce a single bible translation in any language that eliminates hell.

Which was never my intention to start with.

Again, why would I care what viewpoint some old person held? I am perfectly capable, and personally responsible, for reading and understanding the bible for myself. And in doing so, it is abundantly clear that hell is real, as is the lake of fire and real people go there for all eternity if they are not saved.

'Some old person'? The early church translators and schools in general didn't hold with eternal torment being taught in the texts. It's no secret. Yet you just go with a literal reading of the KJV and take it as verbatim?

lain:

What is that supposed to mean. I show you clear scripture that speak of hell and eternal torment and you are attempting to do away with it on conjecture and "old people's opinions". Why not use the bible and tell me Jesus was lying or that He misspoke or that eternal doesn't mean eternal. Good luck with that :thumb:

Grief choleric, I could point to several verses in the bible that point to God restoring all and what would that do? It's not the first time I've been involved in this area of debate and if you're not willing to even research how the original texts were translated and how such a doctrine of eternal torment even came about then what's the point? I don't hold with annihilationism but there's more support for that than your own position.....

Have you ever read the bible? I could fill pages. Allow me to cite some passages and give a brief explanation:

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is down

Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Hell is down. Notice the juxtaposition against "exalted to heaven". The opposite of up, is down, up to heaven, down to hell

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus went to paradise, in the heart of the earth after He died. The heart is the center

Isaiah 5:14
“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

Hell is a place people descend into. It is also interesting to note that scientist have noted that the cavity in the center of the earth is expanding, as this passage tells us Hell has enlarged herself. Standing room only I guess...

Ezekiel 31:16
“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”

Again descend

Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”

Need commentary on this one? Under the earth there is fire and that fire is hell.

(Proverb 7:27) "Her house is the way to hell (Sheol), going down to the chambers of death."

(Isaiah 14:15) "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (Sheol), to the sides of the pit."

(Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

all talking about downward

Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the Pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Notice it is down to hell, also called a pit:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

The pit is hell, it is down, it is in the lower parts of the earth, it is in the nether parts of the earth. I could go on and on and on and on. This is very simple if you believe what you read.

Once again you have a real difficulty with allegory. If you seriously think that that the core of earth is hell then most here would call you deluded, even those that believe in a similar doctrine on hell. Jesus 'descended' into 'hell' if you recall?

It appeared you were attempting to prove hell was allegorical by implying the impossibility of hell being thrown into itself. Realizing hell and the lake of fire are in different places clears up the matter. Why else did you ask me to explain it?

Noooo, I never implied any such thing. I commented on the allegory of 'death' and 'hell' being somehow cast into the lake of fire. 'Death' is not 'dead physical people' choleric. It's the last 'enemy' to be destroyed, so no metaphor there then.

lain:

None whatsoever. I take the bible literally unless it is absolutely impossible to do so. Allegory is vastly over used when reading Scripture, it is far more literal than you realize. Allow me to post a couple verses that beat scientific discovery based on the literal application of seemingly innocuous passages:

Right, so I guess you're a YEC as well then?

Jet Streams: The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago.

Hydrothermal vents were described in Job long before science ever found them out.

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

The fact that the earth is round was shown in Isaiah:

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

There is far more, but this will suffice. The point is the bible is literal almost all of the time and I suggest even more so than the most conservative of us believe.

Uh, right, your opinion and nothing more. Literalism and blind fundamentalism often go hand in hand.....

No, to set aside what the bible clearly says in favor of something outside of the bible is arrogant. Jesus said to fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell. It is very, very arrogant to think you know better than Jesus.

Yeh, because even those who think it's a place of torment are all inabsolute agreement on just what that is aren't they? You just read hell to be a place of literal burning torment and stuff anything that causes you to question whether you're right or not. A conscience and empathy towards your fellow frail beings should give you pasue for thought on that but you just stick with your dogma.

Your church may not have emphasised, but they did not exclude Romans through Philemon. Those who think Paul is a heretic, believe that Romans through Philemon should not be in the bible. Don't you understand that? That is a serious accusation.

They didn't exclude Paul at all, nor did they make a big deal of it, call him a heretic or teach works etc.

Nope, 100% consistent. I rely 100% on the bible. I don't put my bible down and pick up some old dudes writing and then give that equal weight to the Scripture. If Polycarp thought hell was allegorical, he as dead wrong. It doesn't matter if he lived 1900 years ago.

Which just goes to show your intellectual 'honesty' on the matter. You're in no position to say there's no allegory regarding 'hell' simply because you're reluctant to question the dogma or your own rigidly literal interpretation of a specific translation of the bible.

There is no complication there. Hell is real because the bible says so. Jesus is God because the bible says so. Paul was not a heretic because the bible says so. Salvation is a free gift without works because the bible says so. This is very easy.

Nobody said hell wasn't real dude if you'd been reading along....tell me, is there anything in Revelation you read as allegory?

Exactly!! :thumb:

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ya know - 'good news' is just that.

I don't need to do research. Please, pick a topic. Tell me sheol doesn't mean hell, tell me eternal doesn't mean eternal. Please, I am begging you to try to prove either of those with Scripture. You keep hinting around like you have it all figured out, then tell me about it. Stop acting like you "got this" and lay it out there for me.

Yeah, you do if you're going to be honest on the matter. It won't take you long to see how the early church formed and how the texts were translated. It's not about disproving 'hell' which you really should be aware of by now as mentioned earlier. It's ironic that you want others to do that which you should already have at your disposal to accuse them of innacuracy.

THis doesn 't consign someone to torment, it tells you how to avoid it. And good works can't help you, which is also taught clearly in the bible:
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So you had no say in your salvation then right? After all, isn't your choice to repent and believe a 'work' of your own?

God saves us based on His free gift of imputed righteousness. It is not based on our attempts at earning it or establishing our own goodness whereby we get to a point where we are good enough to be saved.

And? The bible seems to make it pretty clear that caring for others should inform part of life even it isn't part of faith in itself. Remember that stuff said to 'believers' about clothing the needy, feeding the hungry etc?

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Many people are ignorant of God's righteousness that He will give (impute) to anyone who comes to Him in faith through His Son. Instead, they try to go around establishing their own righteousness by being good and don't submit themselves to God's righteousness.

Well darn that 'good samaritan' then. He must have just been doing that to 'curry favour' with God.

If altruism is somehow submitting to something other than God's righteousness then hey....

You have made points but with no substance. You have hinted at "translations" and "study of the terms" but you haven't produced any of it. Scripture clearly demonstrates that people who are lost die and go to hell which is at the center of the earth where they await judgment which all men face according to Heb 9:27. Scripture also clearly teaches that at the end of the millennium the second resurrection occurs and all those stand before God to be judged by their works and are cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.

What's at the centre of the earth is the earth's core. Seriously, you are just whacked out on this and carry on believing as you will. It's pointless to argue with this type of delusion....

There is no allegory there. The bible is full of this teaching from beginning to end. You would have to eliminate quite a bit of your bible to believe such a lie. And make no mistake, it is a lie from the father of lies..."hath God said?" It is the oldest lie in the book, LITERALLY.

Yeah, ok choleric. Have at it with your belief. The only good thing I noticed about this post is that you didn't bother to defend SD's antics this time around. You thought she stood for 'truth' remember? Now you know otherwise (or at least I hope you do)

I remember when I first came here in 2007, my first lengthy conversation was with GLENDA. She was nice at first and then started challenging me on my salvation based on the free gift of God. As a new believer at the time (days in fact) it was very troublesome to me for the few weeks that we started the conversation. I began to struggle with doubt etc. It was after a couple weeks of the conversation that I realized she completely eliminated all the teaching from Romans to Philemon and I was therefore arguing with someone who had half a new testament.

Interestingly she never offered that information for a long time into our conversation. Had I realized her error from the beginning, I would not have had that issue and could have avoided all the heartache at the start.

Glenda, nice woman and it's not her fault you underwent such difficulty. I get the sense that you've only started this type of thread out of personal reasons as much as anything else.

That is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to help others avoid. And it is exactly the reason Paul told us to mark heretics, to protect others from wolves in sheeps clothing.

Eh, this is a debate forum as you well know. All you do is incite heated opposition but you likely know that as well.

I never said the holding cell lasts forever. God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. It is also at the end of the millenium when all lost, hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. The new earth will not have a hell.

Well, yes you did but then believing that the core of the earth is hell is so bizarre it's something else anyway....

I like puzzles to give myself some idle time. Sudoku is challenging in a bothersome way. I want to relax. Give me a word find

I think ludo might be a better option then....

Choleric · Oct 8, 2012

Arthur Brain said:
Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of them. I can understand why others see it differently as well however.

You may be able to understand it, but only one of us is right, either them or me. The other one is going to go to hell. This is not "hmmm I really like red, but I can see why blue would be your favorite, lets hold hands and sing".

I can understand how someone would believe a lie, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stand for truth.

Nope, rather the interpretation of what 'hell' actually is. You must surely be familiar with how it's referred to as the grave? Well guess what, everyone 'visits' the place.

I am familiar with some really bad eisegesis on the subject. I would greatly appreciate you just telling me what you believe using Scripture instead of continually hinting around about it. I posted dozens of Scripture which you flat out deny. I would appreciate you doing more than saying "uh-uh". Try Scripture and plain reason.

Why? Based on what?

Internal evidence, but that is for another thread.

Which was never my intention to start with

.

Is it your intention to dance around the subject like this is an M Knight Shamalan film? Are you purposely dragging on the conclusion of the mystery until the end? The entertainment value is diminishing, please press fast forward and get to it. (end film analogy

)

'Some old person'? The early church translators and schools in general didn't hold with eternal torment being taught in the texts. It's no secret. Yet you just go with a literal reading of the KJV and take it as verbatim? lain:

Yes, imagine that, I read and believe the bible. Good grief man, listen to yourself! You are questioning my reasoning because I believe the bible for crying out loud! There is no book on earth more reliable than the bible.

Grief choleric, I could point to several verses in the bible that point to God restoring all and what would that do? It's not the first time I've been involved in this area of debate and if you're not willing to even research how the original texts were translated and how such a doctrine of eternal torment even came about then what's the point? I don't hold with annihilationism but there's more support for that than your own position.....

Please, for the love of God, post SOME Scripture, anything. You keep talking like I'm crazy and you have all this knowledge that you are about to drop like Hiroshima, and yet you haven't posted a single Scripture to support any position you attempt to hold. Pick a verse, post it and explain how your interpretation is correct.

Once again you have a real difficulty with allegory. If you seriously think that that the core of earth is hell then most here would call you deluded, even those that believe in a similar doctrine on hell.

AB, there are nearly a hundred verses that speak of hell being down, we have verses where the earth opens up and swallows people and they go down, down to the pit, down into hell. This is so simple, why would you deny it? What purpose do you have in denying what the bible says about hell being in the heart of the earth?

Jesus 'descended' into 'hell' if you recall?

Yes, and that is also not allegory. The saints before CHrist went into hell into Abrahams bosom. When Christ died, He went into hell to "lead captivity captive" and take those OT saints to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Remember, no person was saved until Christ died. Remember the story of the rich man and lazarus. The rich man "lifted his eyes in torments and saw Lazarus afar off". Luke 16:23-25 Both the saved and lost went to the heart of the earth before the Cross, but the saved were in "Paradise" and the lost in torments. Christ went down and brought those OT saints with Him out of hell into glory. That is why even though Christ was going down, he told the thief on the cross, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." They both went down before they went up. Not allegory. Jesus said he would go to the heart of the earth, and He did. Matt 12:40

Look at these verses together and see how they harmonize and make perfect sense. Remember, the bible is it's own best interpreter:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

nether parts of the earth=low parts of the earth=down to the pit=lower parts of the earth=where Jesus descended=where abrahams bosom was=where lazarus could see=hell.

Hell is the pit which is in the nether/low parts of the earth. This is plainly taught if you simply lay aside your allegory.

The bible makes so much more sense if you would simply believe it as it is written.

Noooo, I never implied any such thing. I commented on the allegory of 'death' and 'hell' being somehow cast into the lake of fire. 'Death' is not 'dead physical people' choleric. It's the last 'enemy' to be destroyed, so no metaphor there then. lain:

But it is more than metaphor. While death is a state of being and I could see the allegory there, it is referred to in Scripture as more than a state of being:

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Apparently, like hell, death is a place that holds dead people. It also has gates:

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Right, so I guess you're a YEC as well then?

Not necessarily. While I of course believe the 6 day creation story in genesis was a literal 6 days and happened just as the bible tells us it did, I also believe the Gap theory. So as far as the age of the earth itself, I don't have any idea, neither do scientists.

Don't tell me you are an evolutionist too?

Uh, right, your opinion and nothing more. Literalism and blind fundamentalism often go hand in hand.....

Are you implying that the earth is not a circle, or that the sea doesn't have circuits or underwater rivers? Are you implying that there is no such thing as a jet stream? Are you saying that wind doesn't have weight? Or do you take a black marker to those verses and toss up your hands claiming you can't understand them?

I really wish you would stop saying I am wrong and show me how I am. Explain it if you can.

Yeh, because even those who think it's a place of torment are all inabsolute agreement on just what that is aren't they? You just read hell to be a place of literal burning torment and stuff anything that causes you to question whether you're right or not

.

AB, you haven't given me anything to stuff. All you have done is tell me I am wrong without making a single logical argument to support your case or to even post a single Scripture with some explanation.

A conscience and empathy towards your fellow frail beings should give you pasue for thought on that but you just stick with your dogma.

Wait a second, do you think I enjoy the concept of hell? Do you really think that it makes me happy to think about people going to hell? I can assure you it brings me no such pleasure. I would not wish hell on my worst enemy.

But I can also assure you that if pause and empathy are what you value, then warning people about being on the broad road is a great deal more compassionate than telling them "everything is going to be alright, just ignore the crazy bible beliver and Jesus who said you had to be Born Again, they are crazy. You will be fine, just try your best"

They didn't exclude Paul at all, nor did they make a big deal of it, call him a heretic or teach works etc.

That was my point. The people on the list exclude Paul. That is heresy.

Which just goes to show your intellectual 'honesty' on the matter. You're in no position to say there's no allegory regarding 'hell' simply because you're reluctant to question the dogma or your own rigidly literal interpretation of a specific translation of the bible.

You keep saying it, SHOW ME THE LIGHT! Please tell me how I am wrong. I am currently believing the bible, allowing the bible to define itself, and be its' own interpreter. If you feel there is more to it than that, you are going to have to do more than allude to it.

Nobody said hell wasn't real dude if you'd been reading along....tell me, is there anything in Revelation you read as allegory?

A little. The mystery babylon is allegory for the rcc and the "city which sitteth on seven hills" is Rome, which is known as the city on seven hills. Perhaps Jesus doesn't have a sword come out of his mouth, but something supernatural happens which allow Him to kill that many people in such a short time. Maybe it was something coming out of His mouth that John could best describe as a sword?

Ya know - 'good news' is just that.

Yep, and you wouldn't have much of it without Paul and if you try to earn it you will never get it.

Yeah, you do if you're going to be honest on the matter. It won't take you long to see how the early church formed and how the texts were translated. It's not about disproving 'hell' which you really should be aware of by now as mentioned earlier. It's ironic that you want others to do that which you should already have at your disposal to accuse them of innacuracy.

What you are attempting to do is tell me that I cannot rely on the bible to define it's own terms, to tell me what hell is and you expect me to rely on some early church writing or understanding on the subject. I see no reason why I should favor anything over the bible.

So you had no say in your salvation then right? After all, isn't your choice to repent and believe a 'work' of your own?

Are you arguing with me or the Scripture? :AMR: Because the passage I showed you clearly says we are not saved by good works. So by that verse, believing is not a good work, otherwise that verse would be wrong, and since we know the bible is not wrong, then believing is not a work.

Unless you want to argue with the bible on that one too?

And? The bible seems to make it pretty clear that caring for others should inform part of life even it isn't part of faith in itself. Remember that stuff said to 'believers' about clothing the needy, feeding the hungry etc?

Yes, we are to be good citizens, good neighbors etc, but we aren't saved by those things. Those are "works of righteousness which we have done" but we are "not save by" them. Remember the verse we just went over? The bible lays it out plain.

We also know that "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man" and that way is works. But is leads to destruction according to Jesus. Any person on earth that we witness to would admit that they think being a good person is what gets them to heaven. That is what Jesus was talking about. There is one way which seems right to a man and that way is works, but that is not the way.

Jesus told us HE is THE WAY. The WAY is not a plan, or being good, THE WAY is a Man, the Messiah, our Savior.

Well darn that 'good samaritan' then. He must have just been doing that to 'curry favour' with God. If altruism is somehow submitting to something other than God's righteousness then hey...

.

It's not about whether or not we do it, it is about why we do it. If we do it thinking we are earning something from God which cannot be earned (hence free gift) then we are barking up the wrong tree.

What's at the centre of the earth is the earth's core. Seriously, you are just whacked out on this and carry on believing as you will. It's pointless to argue with this type of delusion....

Ab, you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with dozens and dozens of verses of scripture that together show you plainly where the pit is, where the nether parts of the earth are, where the low parts of the earth are and where abrahams bosom was, and where hell is and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. You are replacing the clear teaching of Scripture with your opinion based on zero Scripture and in fact IN SPITE of Scripture.

Yeah, ok choleric. Have at it with your belief. The only good thing I noticed about this post is that you didn't bother to defend SD's antics this time around. You thought she stood for 'truth' remember? Now you know otherwise (or at least I hope you do)

The devils first lie to mankind was to get them to doubt God's word with "hath God said". That is no different than what you are dealing with. God clearly teaches something in Scripture and you are saying "did He REALLY say that, or does it mean something opposite of what it appears to mean?"

Tell me, where is hell then? And do you have any Scripture to support your claim? Where do the unsaved dead go?

Glenda, nice woman and it's not her fault you underwent such difficulty. I get the sense that you've only started this type of thread out of personal reasons as much as anything else.

GLenda is a lost sinner on her way to hell. She is the epitome of Rom 10:3. And it was her intent to mislead me, as she did others or she would have flat out said from the beginning that the doctrine taught in Rom-Philemon was wrong. She didn't and she did that on purpose as she is a wolf in sheeps clothing. That is why her kind are so dangerous and it is why Paul so often warned against such:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Glenda and all those who pervert the gospel will be judged according to their works as is clearly taught in Scripture. And she will be found guilty and will be thrown into a lake of fire. I take no pleasure in that fact and I have had many conversations with her about her error, but she simply doesn't believe the bible and for that she will perish. And her false gospel is a danger to those she deceives. I could post 30 more verses with warnings all over the NT. do you believe the warnings are mean spirited?

Eh, this is a debate forum as you well know. All you do is incite heated opposition but you likely know that as well.

Not inciting at all. Again, those on the list do not object to being on it. Glenda does not deny her heresy, and neither do the catholics or Christ deniers. They actually enjoy it and argue over who should be on top. The only people that get upset are people who don't stand for anything and are only worried about everyone getting along. :wave2:

Well, yes you did but then believing that the core of the earth is hell is so bizarre it's something else anyway....

Tell you what, start with the verses I posted on the subject. I posted quite a few that all point to the same conclusion. If I am wrong, explain what the verses do mean. How is the pit in the nether parts of the earth in the low parts of the earth where Abrahams bosom was and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. DOn't just tell my I am wrong, tell me WHY.

I think ludo might be a better option then....

Say what :AMR:

Pierac · Oct 8, 2012

Choleric said:
You may be able to understand it, but only one of us is right, either them or me. The other one is going to go to hell. This is not "hmmm I really like red, but I can see why blue would be your favorite, lets hold hands and sing".

I can understand how someone would believe a lie, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stand for truth.

I am familiar with some really bad eisegesis on the subject. I would greatly appreciate you just telling me what you believe using Scripture instead of continually hinting around about it. I posted dozens of Scripture which you flat out deny. I would appreciate you doing more than saying "uh-uh". Try Scripture and plain reason.

Internal evidence, but that is for another thread.

.

Is it your intention to dance around the subject like this is an M Knight Shamalan film? Are you purposely dragging on the conclusion of the mystery until the end? The entertainment value is diminishing, please press fast forward and get to it. (end film analogy )

Yes, imagine that, I read and believe the bible. Good grief man, listen to yourself! You are questioning my reasoning because I believe the bible for crying out loud! There is no book on earth more reliable than the bible.

Please, for the love of God, post SOME Scripture, anything. You keep talking like I'm crazy and you have all this knowledge that you are about to drop like Hiroshima, and yet you haven't posted a single Scripture to support any position you attempt to hold. Pick a verse, post it and explain how your interpretation is correct.

AB, there are nearly a hundred verses that speak of hell being down, we have verses where the earth opens up and swallows people and they go down, down to the pit, down into hell. This is so simple, why would you deny it? What purpose do you have in denying what the bible says about hell being in the heart of the earth?

Yes, and that is also not allegory. The saints before CHrist went into hell into Abrahams bosom. When Christ died, He went into hell to "lead captivity captive" and take those OT saints to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Remember, no person was saved until Christ died. Remember the story of the rich man and lazarus. The rich man "lifted his eyes in torments and saw Lazarus afar off". Luke 16:23-25 Both the saved and lost went to the heart of the earth before the Cross, but the saved were in "Paradise" and the lost in torments. Christ went down and brought those OT saints with Him out of hell into glory. That is why even though Christ was going down, he told the thief on the cross, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." They both went down before they went up. Not allegory. Jesus said he would go to the heart of the earth, and He did. Matt 12:40

Look at these verses together and see how they harmonize and make perfect sense. Remember, the bible is it's own best interpreter:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

nether parts of the earth=low parts of the earth=down to the pit=lower parts of the earth=where Jesus descended=where abrahams bosom was=where lazarus could see=hell.

Hell is the pit which is in the nether/low parts of the earth. This is plainly taught if you simply lay aside your allegory.

The bible makes so much more sense if you would simply believe it as it is written.

But it is more than metaphor. While death is a state of being and I could see the allegory there, it is referred to in Scripture as more than a state of being:

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Apparently, like hell, death is a place that holds dead people. It also has gates:

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Not necessarily. While I of course believe the 6 day creation story in genesis was a literal 6 days and happened just as the bible tells us it did, I also believe the Gap theory. So as far as the age of the earth itself, I don't have any idea, neither do scientists.

Don't tell me you are an evolutionist too?

Are you implying that the earth is not a circle, or that the sea doesn't have circuits or underwater rivers? Are you implying that there is no such thing as a jet stream? Are you saying that wind doesn't have weight? Or do you take a black marker to those verses and toss up your hands claiming you can't understand them?

I really wish you would stop saying I am wrong and show me how I am. Explain it if you can.

.

AB, you haven't given me anything to stuff. All you have done is tell me I am wrong without making a single logical argument to support your case or to even post a single Scripture with some explanation.

Wait a second, do you think I enjoy the concept of hell? Do you really think that it makes me happy to think about people going to hell? I can assure you it brings me no such pleasure. I would not wish hell on my worst enemy.

But I can also assure you that if pause and empathy are what you value, then warning people about being on the broad road is a great deal more compassionate than telling them "everything is going to be alright, just ignore the crazy bible beliver and Jesus who said you had to be Born Again, they are crazy. You will be fine, just try your best"

That was my point. The people on the list exclude Paul. That is heresy.

You keep saying it, SHOW ME THE LIGHT! Please tell me how I am wrong. I am currently believing the bible, allowing the bible to define itself, and be its' own interpreter. If you feel there is more to it than that, you are going to have to do more than allude to it.

A little. The mystery babylon is allegory for the rcc and the "city which sitteth on seven hills" is Rome, which is known as the city on seven hills. Perhaps Jesus doesn't have a sword come out of his mouth, but something supernatural happens which allow Him to kill that many people in such a short time. Maybe it was something coming out of His mouth that John could best describe as a sword?

Yep, and you wouldn't have much of it without Paul and if you try to earn it you will never get it.

What you are attempting to do is tell me that I cannot rely on the bible to define it's own terms, to tell me what hell is and you expect me to rely on some early church writing or understanding on the subject. I see no reason why I should favor anything over the bible.

Are you arguing with me or the Scripture? :squint: Because the passage I showed you clearly says we are not saved by good works. So by that verse, believing is not a good work, otherwise that verse would be wrong, and since we know the bible is not wrong, then believing is not a work.

Unless you want to argue with the bible on that one too?

Yes, we are to be good citizens, good neighbors etc, but we aren't saved by those things. Those are "works of righteousness which we have done" but we are "not save by" them. Remember the verse we just went over? The bible lays it out plain.

We also know that "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man" and that way is works. But is leads to destruction according to Jesus. Any person on earth that we witness to would admit that they think being a good person is what gets them to heaven. That is what Jesus was talking about. There is one way which seems right to a man and that way is works, but that is not the way.

Jesus told us HE is THE WAY. The WAY is not a plan, or being good, THE WAY is a Man, the Messiah, our Savior.

.

It's not about whether or not we do it, it is about why we do it. If we do it thinking we are earning something from God which cannot be earned (hence free gift) then we are barking up the wrong tree.

Ab, you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with dozens and dozens of verses of scripture that together show you plainly where the pit is, where the nether parts of the earth are, where the low parts of the earth are and where abrahams bosom was, and where hell is and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. You are replacing the clear teaching of Scripture with your opinion based on zero Scripture and in fact IN SPITE of Scripture.

The devils first lie to mankind was to get them to doubt God's word with "hath God said". That is no different than what you are dealing with. God clearly teaches something in Scripture and you are saying "did He REALLY say that, or does it mean something opposite of what it appears to mean?"

Tell me, where is hell then? And do you have any Scripture to support your claim? Where do the unsaved dead go?

GLenda is a lost sinner on her way to hell. She is the epitome of Rom 10:3. And it was her intent to mislead me, as she did others or she would have flat out said from the beginning that the doctrine taught in Rom-Philemon was wrong. She didn't and she did that on purpose as she is a wolf in sheeps clothing. That is why her kind are so dangerous and it is why Paul so often warned against such:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Glenda and all those who pervert the gospel will be judged according to their works as is clearly taught in Scripture. And she will be found guilty and will be thrown into a lake of fire. I take no pleasure in that fact and I have had many conversations with her about her error, but she simply doesn't believe the bible and for that she will perish. And her false gospel is a danger to those she deceives. I could post 30 more verses with warnings all over the NT. do you believe the warnings are mean spirited?

Not inciting at all. Again, those on the list do not object to being on it. Glenda does not deny her heresy, and neither do the catholics or Christ deniers. They actually enjoy it and argue over who should be on top. The only people that get upset are people who don't stand for anything and are only worried about everyone getting along. :wave2:

Tell you what, start with the verses I posted on the subject. I posted quite a few that all point to the same conclusion. If I am wrong, explain what the verses do mean. How is the pit in the nether parts of the earth in the low parts of the earth where Abrahams bosom was and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. DOn't just tell my I am wrong, tell me WHY.

Say what :squint:

Yea, right! TRY NOT... Posting about a thousands questions and then complain when they don't get answered in a single paragraph/post!

Your a loser... not wanting to let others see that you really follow men! Try asking one question at a time!!! :readthis:

Your so simple minded hiding behind your attempt at confusion...silly boy... it's easy to see your path! :dunce:

It's late... time for you to go to bed and call your pastor in the morning for a reply!

Paul

Lon · Oct 9, 2012

Pierac said:
Sorry Freelight,

But Cholerics' pastor does not speak about liberal spiritualists on Sunday... so he has no way of offering a response either for or against you.... so you kinda get ignored due to his lack of intellectual understanding of your post.

Rather, it is the difference between one who brings things besides a Bible into his/her truth. Not a problem if we are talking about math, big potential problem if we are talking about eternal life: John 14:6

Pierac said:
It should be obvious to all that Choleric can only repeat what he hears and thus creates list to compensate for his lack of intellect!

"It is obvious" that you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions from anything other than what you want made-up.

Pierac said:
If you[']r[e] on the list... it's because his pastor told him you belong there, nothing more or less in his response! :doh:

▲ case in point...it's stupid. If you did the brainslap your icon suggests, it might jog something missing back in place. There is virtually no possibility nor indication that anybody but Choleric fashioned this list. You folks seem to think brainwashing is easy and effective for some reason.

Pierac said:
The weak minded feel the need to create list so they can feel better about dismissing what they can not intellectually debate! Tambora is very much like this! :readthis:

Actually, not being able to draw logical conclusions is more indicative.

Pierac said:
It's not Choleric's or Tambora's fault... So we should not boast in their limitations but be thankful we were given much much more! Here's to you Choleric for your list! :first: Thank you for making the rest of us look so GOOD!

Peace,
Paul

It could be just me, but this whole post looks like defensive and hurt posturing. I'm not sure if that is the only logical conclusion, but 1) I can admit it and you can't or at least haven't, that your reasoning is flawed and 2) I believe the conclusion fits the facts. You seem to be lashing out. You aren't very nice, even on a good day so such is continued par for the course with my expectation of you. You appear to me a shallow pithy person who enjoys this kind of inane banter, so no doubt, you'll seek something witty to you and unremarkable to me for a response.

My point? This whole redress of your's is yet another of many unremarkable posts that reveal you do not even read thread posts logically so cannot be expected to speak of the scriptures with any likewise semblance.

Pierac · Oct 9, 2012

Lon said:
Rather, it is the difference between one who brings things besides a Bible into his/her truth. Not a problem if we are talking about math, big potential problem if we are talking about eternal life: John 14:6

"It is obvious" that you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions from anything other than what you want made-up.

▲ case in point...it's stupid. If you did the brainslap your icon suggests, it might jog something missing back in place. There is virtually no possibility nor indication that anybody but Choleric fashioned this list. You folks seem to think brainwashing is easy and effective for some reason.

Actually, not being able to draw logical conclusions is more indicative.

It could be just me, but this whole post looks like defensive and hurt posturing. I'm not sure if that is the only logical conclusion, but 1) I can admit it and you can't or at least haven't, that your reasoning is flawed and 2) I believe the conclusion fits the facts. You seem to be lashing out. You aren't very nice, even on a good day so such is continued par for the course with my expectation of you. You appear to me a shallow pithy person who enjoys this kind of inane banter, so no doubt, you'll seek something witty to you and unremarkable to me for a response.

My point? This whole redress of your's is yet another of many unremarkable posts that reveal you do not even read thread posts logically so cannot be expected to speak of the scriptures with any likewise semblance.

Wow... Just like Obama during the debate.... Blahblahblah but no actual facts to back them up! :think:

Would you like for me to post the links to how you repond to me on the forum? You know how you say/said ... I'm a good debator so you will not respond to my post! YOUR WORDS NOT MINE!!! Yea, I got the links... :readthis:

So Lon, just ask a question... and stop babbling like a child with his hand in the cookie jar! The title of the thread judges you and Choleric more than I ever could!

Do you really think you have the right to dismiss those whom have claimed Jesus as their Lord and King... the son of the living God...yet you deny them from the body of the Christ? Jesus praised Peter for saying these words I posted... yet you want to add to them! Now whom did Jesus chastise for doing this very thing you do... that is adding to the word??? I don't need to give you the Scripture, as you already know them and thus your shame is even greater :think:

Next time try following your own advice! :doh:

I'm not a good debator, I just expose the truth behind your post!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

dreadknought · Oct 9, 2012

Arrogance................ & ignorance: Pierac :up:

Pierac · Oct 9, 2012

student x said:
Arrogance................ & ignorance: Pierac :up:

Based upon what?

Me pointing out facts... You join Choleric with applying labels you only repeat from your leaders and thus create list to compensate for your lack of intellect!

Don't hate me for showing how you follow men!

I post with tough love Bro,
Deal with it!
Paul

Lon · Oct 9, 2012

Pierac said:
Wow... Just like Obama during the debate.... Blahblahblah but no actual facts to back them up! :think:

Would you like for me to post the links to how you repond to me on the forum? You know how you say/said ... I'm a good debator so you will not respond to my post! YOUR WORDS NOT MINE!!! Yea, I got the links... :readthis:

Yep, pass alone the link. I'm sure, just like you've done here in thread, and with scriptures, there is a fragmented logical connect. In fact, I'm sure it was a comparison of your ability:
Debate? "so so"
Theology? "no no" :nono:
Was it this one perchance?

Lon said:
Everytime you say this, the hype is greater than the effect. It is always like some bunny swatting a turtle or armadillo with a tissue paper. I admit I almost clicked. The hype is always over-the-top, so kudos for that.
Not much of a spiritual commentary, but affirmation on your sales-technique.
You could probably get me to a Shaklee or Amway meeting, though I'd be disappointed when I got there.

Pierac said:
So Lon, just ask a question... and stop babbling like a child with his hand in the cookie jar! The title of the thread judges you and Choleric more than I ever could!

:doh: not the definition of a heretic.

Pierac said:
Do you really think you have the right to dismiss those whom have claimed Jesus as their Lord and King... the son of the living God...yet you deny them from the body of the Christ? Jesus praised Peter for saying these words I posted... yet you want to add to them! Now whom did Jesus chastise for doing this very thing you do... that is adding to the word??? I don't need to give you the Scripture, as you already know them and thus your shame is even greater

"Not being able to draw logical conclusions" is a dismissal?
Jesus might know you. My assessment is rather that you don't know Him very well.

Pierac said:
Next time try following your own advice!

I'm not a good debator, I just expose the truth behind your post!

Paul

Compared to your theology you are 'able' to debate.
Advice? You mean "be nice?" I didn't give it as advice, I just said you aren't. That's an observation but you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions so I'm okay with giving this observation as well. There is no advice there. If I was going to, it would be something like "read your bible more, spend a lot less time arguing about it here" or something like that. :up:

Pierac · Oct 9, 2012

Lon said:
Yep, pass alone the link. I'm sure, just like you've done here in thread, and with scriptures, there is a fragmented logical connect. In fact, I'm sure it was a comparison of your ability:
Debate? "so so"
Theology? "no no" :nono:
Was it this one perchance?

:doh: not the definition of a heretic.

"Not being able to draw logical conclusions" is a dismissal?
Jesus might know you. My assessment is rather that you don't know Him very well.

Compared to your theology you are 'able' to debate.
Advice? You mean "be nice?" I didn't give it as advice, I just said you aren't. That's an observation but you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions so I'm okay with giving this observation as well. There is no advice there. If I was going to, it would be something like "read your bible more, spend a lot less time arguing about it here" or something like that. :up:

Don't hate me for exposing your sins...

Yes, Lon you see sin as a spiritual child... only in moral behavior.... Time to see sin from God's view with no behavior involved... but knowledge and understanding of the spirit!

Thayer Definition:
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken

E-sword Word StudyG266

αμαρτία
hamartía; gen. hamartías, fem. noun from hamartánō (G264), to sin. Sin, missing the true end and scope of our lives, which is God.

Sin = Missing the mark!!!

You totally miss the mark... John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He (Jesus) said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son (Jesus), that the Son (Jesus) may glorify You, (God) 2 even as You (God) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (God) have given Him (Jesus) , He may give eternal life. 3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

You miss the mark Lon (thus Sin) on the greatest commandment of all!

So don't hate me for pointing it out... to you! You now have time to repent because of me showing you the truth!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

jeremysdemo · Oct 9, 2012

Heretic and PROUD! say it with me!

we are in good company......Y'shua, Luther, etc etc.

keep shinin

jerm

freelight · Oct 9, 2012

just a reminder

just a reminder

~*~*~

Dont forget, back in Jesus day...many thought he was a heretic

pj

Choleric · Oct 9, 2012

freelight said:
~*~*~

Dont forget, back in Jesus day...many thought he was a heretic

pj

According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.

jeremysdemo · Oct 9, 2012

Choleric said:
According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.

are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?

(that is the definition of a heretic)

answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33

keep shinin

jerm

Lon · Oct 9, 2012

Pierac said:
Don't hate me for exposing your sins...

Yes, Lon you see sin as a spiritual child... only in moral behavior.... Time to see sin from God's view with no behavior involved... but knowledge and understanding of the spirit!

Thayer Definition:
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken

E-sword Word StudyG266

αμαρτία
hamartía; gen. hamartías, fem. noun from hamartánō (G264), to sin. Sin, missing the true end and scope of our lives, which is God.

Sin = Missing the mark!!!

You totally miss the mark... John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He (Jesus) said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son (Jesus), that the Son (Jesus) may glorify You, (God) 2 even as You (God) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (God) have given Him (Jesus) , He may give eternal life. 3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

You miss the mark Lon (thus Sin) on the greatest commandment of all!

So don't hate me for pointing it out... to you! You now have time to repent because of me showing you the truth!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

If you are trying to tell me how to correct you, I understand. It isn't logical inability, it is sin on your part :up:

Other than that, there is a huge disconnect from the previous post. I haven't a clue which portion you'd be referring to. It is one big ofuscation and nonaddress from anything I could attach that tirade to.

So back to me: Yes, you 'can' debate. No, you cannot do theology well.

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