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'This Is Not Normal': US Judge Denounces Trump's Attacks on Judiciary

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  • #61
    Originally posted by The Barbarian View Post

    It, for example, explains why cities with lots of illegal aliens are safer than other cities. It explains why Texas has fewer criminal convictions per 100,000 illegal aliens, than per 100,000 citizens.

    Stuff like that.



    It would be more like saying "homosexuals are less likely to rob you or assault you." I don't know if that's true for homosexuals, but the data say that it's true for illegal aliens.
    This from the US Justice Department.
    "Non-U.S. citizens, who make up 7% of the U.S. population (per the U.S. Census Bureau for 2017), accounted for 15% of all federal arrests and 15% of prosecutions in U.S. district court for non-immigration crimes in 2018."


    No. As you saw, it's not a crime to be in the United States illegally. It's a crime to enter illegally, but more and more illegal aliens are entering legally and just overstaying.
    Point noted. Point not needed anymore.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Derf View Post

      Clete lets people get to him too easily.
      remember Sozo?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by ok doser View Post

        remember Sozo?
        Didn't have too much interaction with him, but I remember the name.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Derf View Post

          Didn't have too much interaction with him, but I remember the name.
          He was fun to watch, didn't tolerate foolishness for long

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Derf View Post
            This from the US Justice Department.
            "Non-U.S. citizens, who make up 7% of the U.S. population (per the U.S. Census Bureau for 2017), accounted for 15% of all federal arrests and 15% of prosecutions in U.S. district court for non-immigration crimes in 2018."
            For example, lying to agents, using a fake ID, etc. And the data in that study do not show that they are non-immigration crimes. Do you have anything that does? This is why Texas, for example, shows that illegal aliens commit fewer assaults and thefts than native-born Americans. Here's one attempt to resolve conflicting claims:

            As we said, there aren’t readily available nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status. But the available research that estimates the relationship between illegal immigration and crime generally shows an association with lower crime rates. The impetus is on the president to provide evidence of his claim, and Trump instead simply cited statistics on violent crime committed by all noncitizens without attempting to compare those figures to crimes committed by native-born residents.
            https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is...or-less-crime/
            Illegal Immigration and Violent Crime Rates in the United States, 2009-2014
            12 Feb 2018 Last revised: 20 Jul 2018
            Jinkinson Smith


            Abstract

            The question of whether illegal immigration is positively related to crime rates in the United States has been heavily publicized since current U.S. president Donald Trump announced his candidacy for president in 2015. This study explores the relationship between changes in illegal immigration and changes in violent crime rates at the state level during the period from 2009 to 2014. Data came from the Pew Research Center and the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports. Results show that changes in the percent of a state's population made up of undocumented immigrants is not significantly correlated with changes in violent crime rates among U.S. states for which data on both parameters exist (n=13). The finding of a lack of statistically significant association between undocumented immigration and crime is generally consistent with previous research on this topic.

            As Kirsanow acknowledged, the government doesn't keep good data on illegal immigrant incarcerations in state correctional facilities. But the data we do have suggests that they are actually much less crime-prone than native-born Americans.

            The Texas Tribune
            reported, after examining data obtained from the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, that illegal immigrants are underrepresented in local jails. They are only 4.6 percent of Texas inmates while they make up 6.3 percent of that state's total population.

            Some
            academicresearchers have examined quasi-natural policy shifts to see how crime rates change due to more intense immigration enforcement. If illegal immigrants are more crime-prone, then more aggressive immigration enforcement in an area should lower crime rates. But they found no overall reduction. This suggests, at a minimum, that illegal immigrants' crime rate is no higher than that of the broader population.

            More
            recent research conduced by Michelangelo Landgrave and me finds similar results. We applied a statistical technique that is used to figure out the employment, age, and occupations of immigrants in the census to the incarcerated population data in the American Community Survey. This allowed us to estimate the percentage of illegals among the incarcerated. We found that even if one includes in the mix those in detention facilities—most whom are there for immigration-related offenses—illegal immigrants are 44 percent less likely to be incarcerated than native-born Americans. Excluding those in immigration detention yields an incarceration rate that is almost identical to that of legal immigrants: A dramatic 69 percent lower than that of natives.
            https://reason.com/2018/02/01/immigrants-and-crime/


            (Barbarian again shows that it is not a crime to be in the United States illegally)

            Point noted. Point not needed anymore.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by The Barbarian View Post

              For example, lying to agents, using a fake ID, etc. And the data in that study do not show that they are non-immigration crimes. Do you have anything that does? This is why Texas, for example, shows that illegal aliens commit fewer assaults and thefts than native-born Americans.
              It's dangerous to commit those kinds of crimes in Texas. The residents carry guns. Maybe that's why the illegal immigrant population hasn't risen much in Texas over the last several years. And if that's the only data source for your Cato friends, too bad for you.

              All I'm doing is providing some fact check from other than your normal sources--and a DOJ source should be at least somewhat believable, even for you. If you don't agree, that's up to you, but all of the stuff you've provided is caveated to only consider certain types of crimes or merely incarceration. Here's the list of "immigration crimes" from the justice dept document. If they discount those, the other ones are non-immigration crimes according to them.


              Dual civil and criminal justice responses are authorized under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) to address persons who are in or are attempting to enter the U.S. without authorization, and persons committing crimes while unlawfully in the U.S. The INA covers criminal immigration offenses that are subject to federal arrest and prosecution, including illegal entry into the U.S., illegal re-entry after having been removed, failing to leave the U.S. after a final order of deportation has been issued, remaining beyond days on conditional permit, bringing in or harboring aliens, and more. This report uses data from the Federal Justice Statistics Program (FJSP) to describe the federal enforcement of criminal provisions of the INA (Title 8 U.S.C. 1101.43).



              Here's one attempt to resolve conflicting claims:

              As we said, there aren’t readily available nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status. But the available research that estimates the relationship between illegal immigration and crime generally shows an association with lower crime rates. The impetus is on the president to provide evidence of his claim, and Trump instead simply cited statistics on violent crime committed by all noncitizens without attempting to compare those figures to crimes committed by native-born residents.
              https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is...or-less-crime/
              Illegal Immigration and Violent Crime Rates in the United States, 2009-2014
              12 Feb 2018 Last revised: 20 Jul 2018
              Jinkinson Smith


              Abstract

              The question of whether illegal immigration is positively related to crime rates in the United States has been heavily publicized since current U.S. president Donald Trump announced his candidacy for president in 2015. This study explores the relationship between changes in illegal immigration and changes in violent crime rates at the state level during the period from 2009 to 2014. Data came from the Pew Research Center and the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports. Results show that changes in the percent of a state's population made up of undocumented immigrants is not significantly correlated with changes in violent crime rates among U.S. states for which data on both parameters exist (n=13). The finding of a lack of statistically significant association between undocumented immigration and crime is generally consistent with previous research on this topic.

              As Kirsanow acknowledged, the government doesn't keep good data on illegal immigrant incarcerations in state correctional facilities. But the data we do have suggests that they are actually much less crime-prone than native-born Americans.

              The Texas Tribune
              reported, after examining data obtained from the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, that illegal immigrants are underrepresented in local jails. They are only 4.6 percent of Texas inmates while they make up 6.3 percent of that state's total population.

              Some
              academicresearchers have examined quasi-natural policy shifts to see how crime rates change due to more intense immigration enforcement. If illegal immigrants are more crime-prone, then more aggressive immigration enforcement in an area should lower crime rates. But they found no overall reduction. This suggests, at a minimum, that illegal immigrants' crime rate is no higher than that of the broader population.

              More
              recent research conduced by Michelangelo Landgrave and me finds similar results. We applied a statistical technique that is used to figure out the employment, age, and occupations of immigrants in the census to the incarcerated population data in the American Community Survey. This allowed us to estimate the percentage of illegals among the incarcerated. We found that even if one includes in the mix those in detention facilities—most whom are there for immigration-related offenses—illegal immigrants are 44 percent less likely to be incarcerated than native-born Americans. Excluding those in immigration detention yields an incarceration rate that is almost identical to that of legal immigrants: A dramatic 69 percent lower than that of natives.
              https://reason.com/2018/02/01/immigrants-and-crime/
              Ok. Even your sources admit it's hard to figure out the truth. The idea Trump was getting at is that we don't want people immigrating here without some checks and balances to prevent, as best as possible, those who are more likely to commit crimes. An open boarder is the least effective way to do that. That was Trump's point.

              Was he right? I don't know for sure. But the concept is not out of the realm of possibility, and you apparently don't have enough data to show he's wrong, even according to your own sources.

              Comment


              • #67
                [QUOTE=Derf;n2726571

                Ok. Even your sources admit it's hard to figure out the truth.[/quote]

                And they note that Trump's claims are wrong. The evidence shows that illegal aliens are less likely to commit crimes here than are native born Americans.

                The idea Trump was getting at is that we don't want people immigrating here without some checks and balances to prevent, as best as possible,
                No. His claim is that immigrants from Mexico are drug dealers and rapists with "some good people." He merely made that story up.

                An open boarder is the least effective way to do that. That was Trump's point.
                For much of American history, we had open borders. It worked fine. We don't now, and the system is broken. We need to reform the law, but Trump is too weak to do anything about it.

                I don't know for sure. But the concept is not out of the realm of possibility, and you apparently don't have enough data to show he's wrong, even according to your own sources.
                As you see, the evidence indicates that illegal immigrants tend to be less criminal than native-born Americans.

                Comment

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