Trump: Racist Firestorm

[Alate_One]

that's not an answer to my question

which "race" would you categorize obama as?

Not my job to categorize people by race. I can estimate what society will assume about a person but I generally take the person's word for it.

I work at a school with a very diverse student body. I don't try to guess where they are from or what "race" they are, there be dragons. You can often guess where someone grew up by their accent, or what language they speak but even that can be misleading at times.

Several years ago there was a black graduate student serving at my church who had a perfect "generic" American accent which made me think she was American. I later learned she was actually born in Angola but had been educated by white American evangelical Christians in Portugal (hence no detectable accent in her English). And before you ask, she said she preferred to be referred to as black rather than African American since she wasn't actually American.

In my life I just try to deal with people as individuals and let them tell me who they are.

 

[ok doser]

Not my job to categorize people by race.

then you have no grounds by which to claim trump is being racist

those middle eastern countries are, to you, aracial, and so trump's targeting of them is also aracial

 

[Alate_One]

then you have no grounds by which to claim trump is being racist

those middle eastern countries are, to you, aracial, and so trump's targeting of them is also aracial

I think you got yourself into a non-sequitur. What my beliefs are with regards to race really doesn't make any difference in regards to whether Trump is a racist or not. Either someone discriminates on the basis of race or they don't. He also clearly views some races as superior to others. He treats the races differently based on his personal racial hierarchy, therefore he is a racist. Worse since he is able to make policy, he can use his own personal biases to set racist policies in motion.

Even if I personally claimed to be totally colorblind (which I am not) it wouldn't matter because Trump would still objectively be a racist.

Race exists as a social construct, it can be discussed without being a racist. It's when you assert racial differences leading to superior and inferior groups then you have a problem.

 

[quip]

then you have no grounds by which to claim trump is being racist

those middle eastern countries are, to you, aracial, and so trump's targeting of them is also aracial

Was that your QED? :chuckle:

 

[ok doser]

I think you got yourself into a non-sequitur. What my beliefs are with regards to race really doesn't make any difference in regards to whether Trump is a racist or not.

of course they do - they're key to understanding why you think something that's demonstrably false

Either someone discriminates on the basis of race or they don't.

as i demonstrated with regard to muslims and "people of middle eastern descent", he doesn't

He also clearly views some races as superior to others.

you haven't "clearly" demonstrated this - care to try?

He treats the races differently ...

in what way does he treat negroes differently?

in what way does he treat asians differently?

... Trump would still objectively be a racist.

but you've failed so far to give objective evidence of his racism

Race exists as a social construct, it can be discussed without being a racist. It's when you assert racial differences leading to superior and inferior groups that you have a problem.

superior and inferior in what way?

 

[Alate_One]

as i demonstarted with regard to muslims and "people of middle eastern descent", he doesn't

Do you honestly think that someone has to institute a policy against *everyone* in a racial or religious group across the globe to be biased against them? If the KKK guy happens to be nice to a few black people he knows, while burning crosses on the lawns of poor black people living in a neighborhood he doesn't like, does that make him "not racist" in your view?

you haven't "clearly" demonstrated this - care to try?

The Muslim ban was against muslims of color that Trump had no ties to. Not white Muslims, not Muslim countries he thought might be useful, not even ones that have "produced" the most terrorists, but Muslim countries that served as scapegoats for Trump's islamaophobia. You never demonstrated a legitimate reason for the ban.

in what way does he treat negroes differently?

Shall we bring up the Colin Kapernick debacle? Birtherism? The attacks on a variety of cities?

in what way does he treat asians differently?

Asians haven't been a particularly strong focus of his, but I did run across this.

but you've failed so far to give objective evidence of his racism

you seem to think racism means something else . . .

superior and inferior in what way?

Lesse he wants Norwegian Immigrants, but doesn't want them from S-hole countries. He doesn't want Mexican immigrants and other immigrants of color to bring their families through chain migration, but marries multiple white immigrants and allows their families to use chain immigration.

He attacks Democratic women of color and tells them to go back to their countries (Nearly all of whom were born citizens), never says the same about white Democratic women.

There's so many racist tropes pouring out of the President it's denial of reality that you actually think you can argue this point.

And that's before I even bring up the lawsuit against him before he was president intentionally denying housing to people of color!

 

[ok doser]

Do you honestly think that someone has to institute a policy against *everyone* in a racial or religious group across the globe to be biased against them? If the KKK guy happens to be nice to a few black people he knows, while burning crosses on the lawns of poor black people living in a neighborhood he doesn't like, does that make him "not racist" in your view?

i like to go with dictionary definitions

rac·ism /ˈrāˌsizəm/ Learn to pronounce noun noun: racism the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. "theories of racism"

The Muslim ban was against muslims of color that Trump had no ties to. Not white Muslims, not Muslim countries he thought might be useful, not even ones that have "produced" the most terrorists, but Muslim countries that served as scapegoats for Trump's islamaophobia. You never demonstrated a legitimate reason for the ban.

and you've never explained why obama's targeting of those same countries with his travel restrictions was different

Shall we bring up the Colin Kapernick debacle? Birtherism? The attacks on a variety of cities?

no, let's finish with the "muslim travel ban" that didn't ban most muslims

or most muslim middle easterners

or most brown muslims

 

[Alate_One]

i like to go with dictionary definitions

Dictionary definitions are pretty limited, but really what dictionary did you use?

racism noun rac·​ism | \ ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi- \ Definition of racism 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles b : a political or social system founded on racism 3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

A racist can believe that a race as a whole is inferior and yet still believe there are a few "good ones" out there. That doesn't make them "not racist". "I have a black friend" is not a defense against racism.

And look I didn't pick every middle eastern country isn't a defense against trying to ban middle eastern Muslims.

and you've never explained why obama's targeting of those same countries with his travel restrictions was different

Obama's was not a blanket ban against whole countries, it was specific in scope and brief in duration (months). Trump's travel ban is a blanket ban and is still in effect . . .

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...mparing-trumps-and-obamas-immigration-restri/

no, let's finish with the "muslim travel ban" that didn't ban most muslims

Let's make this a little clearer for you since you seem to be having some trouble. The ban worked like this: Trump comes in to office, says I want to ban all Muslims! Advisers say you can't do that. Trump says well what can I do. And they come up with a list of countries with majority muslim populations, that are not white, not allied nations, not rich or powerful and say, okay we'll use this as a stand in for a total Muslim ban. Mind you, no terrorists have come from any of the countries on the list. There's no rational reason for it other than Trump's desire to ban middle eastern Muslims, but being unable to do that, picking the most available countries.

 

[ok doser]

And look I didn't pick every middle eastern country isn't a defense against trying to ban middle eastern Muslims.

how about "look, i didn't pick the greater majority of middle eastern countries with majority muslim populations"?

Obama's was not a blanket ban against whole countries...

right, it wasn't a ban, it was an application of travel restrictions against those very same whole countries that Trump chose

Trump comes in to office, says I want to ban all Muslims!

cite?

Advisers say you can't do that. Trump says well what can I do. And they come up with a list of countries with majority muslim populations, that are not white, not allied nations, not rich or powerful and say, okay we'll use this as a stand in for a total Muslim ban.

cite?

Mind you, no terrorists have come from any of the countries on the list.

can you explain why obama chose them?

There's no rational reason for it other than Trump's desire to ban middle eastern Muslims, but being unable to do that, picking the most available countries.

in fact, the very same countries that obama picked

 

[Alate_One]

how about "look, i didn't pick the greater majority of middle eastern countries with majority muslim populations"?

Let me try once again to get through to you how moronic this argument is.

The police officers accused of shooting unarmed black men say, "but look at all of the black people we didn't shoot!"

:bang:

 

[ok doser]

Let me try once again to get through to you how moronic this argument is.

The police officers accused of shooting unarmed black men say, "but look at all of the black people we didn't shoot!"

:bang:

rather, the white police officers accused of shooting the same unarmed black men that the previous black police officers had attacked with police dogs say "There's a reason these particular unarmed black men were attacked with police dogs by the previous black police officers. It's the same reason we shot them. They're bad hombres. We don't shoot the unarmed black men who aren't bad hombres, just the same as the previous black police officers didn't attack them with police dogs."

 

[ok doser]

I think you'll understand my argument better if you honestly answer the question i put to you:

Mind you, no terrorists have come from any of the countries on the list.

can you explain why obama chose them?

There's no rational reason for it other than Trump's desire to ban middle eastern Muslims, but being unable to do that, picking the most available countries.

in fact, the very same countries that obama picked

but trump did it for racist reasons




what were bammy's reasons again?

 

[Lighthouse]

It isn't a blanket opposition of illegal immigration. Most people simply overstay their visas, does Trump's ICE go after people from the UK that overstayed their visa? No, he goes after people crossing the southern border, who he called rapists and criminals.

You really have to be in denial to not see what is going on.

It is a blanket opposition of illegal immigration. Just because the MSM doesn't talk about those who overstay doesn't mean they aren't deported when caught. But they're also easier to find; because they have papers. They just aren't as big of an issue, partially because of that and also because there aren't that many of them. The majority of illegal immigrants cross at that border. Race has nothing to do with it.

The current insistence on poor facilities for people crossing the southern border,

The facilities he keeps asking for funding for that the Dems keep denying?

family separation,

Do you know those are actual families? Would you put any other criminal's children in jail with them?

deportation of people here for medical treatment. These affect mostly Latinx people and the global poor which are often non-white.

Citation needed.

He wanted to defund the EPA office of environmental justice (Tries to promote racial equity in environmental issues).

Show them to be a necessity.

Remarks about S-hole countries and how we should get more immigrants from Norway.

Would you want to live in the countries to which he was referring?

The consistent dismissal of the problems in Puerto Rico, but approval of aid for Florida.

What dismissal?

Approval for a state full of Cubans and Puerto Ricans?

Mass shooters that are white supremacists are little talked about or called "crazy", but muslim shooters he rails about.

There aren't that many white supremacist shooters. But the MSM ignores the ones who aren't.

In the countries in question that's fairly well the case, race isn't the same as ethnicity. Racist people in the US look at countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria as being racially the same.

Racist people, such as yourself, that equate Islam with race?

 

[The Barbarian]

There aren't that many white supremacist shooters. But the MSM ignores the ones who aren't.

That's a testable belief.

All of the extremist killings in the US in 2018 had links to right-wing extremism, according to new report

https://www.businessinsider.com/extremist-killings-links-right-wing-extremism-report-2019-1

 

[Alate_One]

rather, the white police officers accused of shooting the same unarmed black men that the previous black police officers had attacked with police dogs say "There's a reason these particular unarmed black men were attacked with police dogs by the previous black police officers. It's the same reason we shot them. They're bad hombres. We don't shoot the unarmed black men who aren't bad hombres, just the same as the previous black police officers didn't attack them with police dogs."

By that logic you're asserting that black people in general have more "bad hombres" than white people. Is that your position?

 

[Alate_One]

It is a blanket opposition of illegal immigration. Just because the MSM doesn't talk about those who overstay doesn't mean they aren't deported when caught. But they're also easier to find; because they have papers. They just aren't as big of an issue, partially because of that and also because there aren't that many of them. The majority of illegal immigrants cross at that border. Race has nothing to do with it.

Oh, I think it clearly does. Race and class. People coming on a visa are richer and usually whiter than those clamoring at the border, and there's a lot more of them. But Trump doesn't care because, you know, brown skin, spanish speaking, poor. Checks all the boxes for his idea of an underclass. Trump thinks rich people are naturally smarter than poor ones.

The report released Wednesday by the Center for Migration Studies of New York finds that from 2016-2017, people who overstayed their visas accounted for 62 percent of the newly undocumented, while 38 percent had crossed a border illegally.

https://cmsny.org/publications/essay-2017-undocumented-and-overstays/

The facilities he keeps asking for funding for that the Dems keep denying?

How about just not imprisoning them like every other administration before this, or better use the money for the wall to care for them, or hire more immigration judges, or something else that actually makes logical sense.

Do you know those are actual families? Would you put any other criminal's children in jail with them?

Yes their "crime" was crossing the border to try to save their children. How can you call yourself a Christian?

"Then he will say to those on his left, "Get away from me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! 42 Here's why: I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn't welcome me. I was naked, and you didn't clothe me. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'

There aren't that many white supremacist shooters. But the MSM ignores the ones who aren't.

Since when? The San Bernadino shooters got TONS of press and the Dayton Ohio Shooter wasn't a white supremacist, possibly an incel but not a white supremacist. Problem is we have an increasing number of white supremacist shooters . . . I wonder why . . . :think: Could it be because there's a racist in the whitehouse, telling these people it's an okay position? And evil people like you defending him as "not racist"?

Racist people, such as yourself, that equate Islam with race?

Didn't do that. I said people with racist views do. What makes the Muslim ban racist is the fact it targets not only Muslims but a specific racial/skin color subset of them.

 

[Alate_One]

can you explain why obama chose them?

If you had bothered to read the politifact article I linked you'd already know. But fine I'll distill it for you this once.

The Obama change was only in reference to Iraq, and only lasted six months for refugee seeking people from the country. The only reference to the other countries on the list was additional review for people who had *visited* those countries, not their citizens. Since all of the nations were politically unstable at the time, screening people who visited them might pull out people who had traveled there as *foreign* fighters.

So as usual everything you've insisted on is wrong.

 

[Lighthouse]

Oh, I think it clearly does. Race and class. People coming on a visa are richer and usually whiter than those clamoring at the border, and there's a lot more of them. But Trump doesn't care because, you know, brown skin, spanish speaking, poor. Checks all the boxes for his idea of an underclass. Trump thinks rich people are naturally smarter than poor ones.

1. Facts don't care about your feelings.
2. Only white people are rich?:think:
3. What part of "easier to find" did you not understand?
4. Prove that Trump thinks this.

The report released Wednesday by the Center for Migration Studies of New York finds that from 2016-2017, people who overstayed their visas accounted for 62 percent of the newly undocumented, while 38 percent had crossed a border illegally.

Out of the ones they were able to find; because they knew they were here... because they had documentation of being here.:dunce::duh:

https://cmsny.org/publications/essay-2017-undocumented-and-overstays/

How about just not imprisoning them like every other administration before this, or better use the money for the wall to care for them, or hire more immigration judges, or something else that actually makes logical sense.

What money for the wall? The same money the dems don't want to supply for that?

Also, imprisoning people for illegally crossing the border has been happening for longer than I've been alive. This administration is hardly the first to do so.

Also, where is the money for the judges going to come from? Are the dems going to let that go through?

Yes their "crime" was crossing the border to try to save their children. How can you call yourself a Christian?

It's illegal to cross the border at a point that is not a checkpoint. That makes it crime, regardless of motive.

Also, how do you know those are in fact their children? What if they're not? What if they're children being trafficked? Because that does happen. In order to save those children then DNA needs to be tested. But you don't care about those children, do you?

And what about the drug runners? Or gun runners?

If people want to come here for legitimate reasons there are checkpoints they can go to. And if they use them then it isn't illegal immigration.

"Then he will say to those on his left, "Get away from me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! 42 Here's why: I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn't welcome me. I was naked, and you didn't clothe me. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'

I'm pretty sure it's the leftists who are denying them these things, either by not funding it or refusing to work for as company that supplies beds to these facilities and such things.

Since when? The San Bernadino shooters got TONS of press and the Dayton Ohio Shooter wasn't a white supremacist, possibly an incel but not a white supremacist. Problem is we have an increasing number of white supremacist shooters . . . I wonder why . . . :think: Could it be because there's a racist in the whitehouse, telling these people it's an okay position? And evil people like you defending him as "not racist"?

Who's telling them it's okay to be racist? Prove that trump has done so. And prove that white supremacist mass shooters have increased.

Also, the Dayton shooter was a Beto supporter.

Didn't do that. I said people with racist views do. What makes the Muslim ban racist is the fact it targets not only Muslims but a specific racial/skin color subset of them.

You're a racist.

 

[Gary K]

By that logic you're asserting that black people in general have more "bad hombres" than white people. Is that your position?

When 90% of blacks killed are killed by other blacks what else is one supposed to think? That blacks killing blacks is a good thing done by moral people? And when 52% of total crime is committed by 13% of the population it says that 13% of the population has a moral problem when that 13% is the black community.

Walter E. Williams points out very distinctly that the problem creating black crime and criminals is the current lack of family structure and where that has originated. He lays it squarely at the door of Democrat socialist policies aimed directly at destroying the black nuclear family. He then proves what the results have been from these racist policies. I say racist because they are destroying the black community, a community which was historically moral, upright, and very family oriented. Now more than 70% of black kids are born into single parent households. It's killing the black community and all you leftists do is point everywhere but at the problem. If you actually cared about the black community you work towards actually helping them rather than using them as a political ploy.

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams092017.php3

 

[Alate_One]

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Gee you should listen to yourself on this point. You've espoused plenty of ideas that show you don't believe in facts.

What money for the wall? The same money the dems don't want to supply for that?

Don't follow the news very well do you?

Also, imprisoning people for illegally crossing the border has been happening for longer than I've been alive. This administration is hardly the first to do so.

Most administrations didn't imprison EVERYONE that crossed.

It's illegal to cross the border at a point that is not a checkpoint. That makes it crime, regardless of motive.

You do know that presenting yourself for asylum is legal right? And no you don't have to do it at a legal border crossing.

Also, how do you know those are in fact their children? What if they're not? What if they're children being trafficked? Because that does happen. In order to save those children then DNA needs to be tested. But you don't care about those children, do you?

Gee when they're crying for mama and papa we should definitely rely on DNA tests . . . How about simply recognizing that separating kids from their caregivers causes permanent harm. But you'd have to be pro-child and not just pro life to care about that . . .

I'm pretty sure it's the leftists who are denying them these things, either by not funding it or refusing to work for as company that supplies beds to these facilities and such things.

You have some real mental gymnastics on this one. Denial of service isn't a bug, it's by Trump administration design. They think it will deter border crossers. It doesn't. It just hurts people. Blaming democrats is just that blameshifting. Isn't that what Cain did when God asked him about murdering his brother? Do you think God is cheering on the separation and detention of vulnerable people in poor conditions?

Who's telling them it's okay to be racist?

The President, by being the racist in chief.

And prove that white supremacist mass shooters have increased.

White supremacists were "directly responsible" for 18 out of 34 U.S. extremist-related deaths in 2017, the ADL said. Islamic extremists, by comparison, were only responsible for nine deaths in America.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...most-extremist-killings-2017-adl-says-n838896

Here's a list of white supremacist killings since Oklahoma City.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...ers-killed-at-least-70-in-u-s-since-1995.html