Trump: Racist Firestorm

[The Barbarian]

You misread what I said. I meant the people the ban included were nearly all people of middle eastern descent, not that the entire global population of middle eastern people were banned.

Not quite. Saudi Arabia was exempted. As you might remember, most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia.

But Trump has a lot of business projects in Saudi Arabia.

So you know what came out as first priority, don't you?

[Alate_One]

only if the ethnic makeup of the country is homogeneous

or if you re-define "race" to mean "country of origin"

In the countries in question that's fairly well the case, race isn't the same as ethnicity. Racist people in the US look at countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria as being racially the same.

[Alate_One]

So you know what came out as first priority, don't you?

With Trump it's always about money first.

[ok doser]

... the people the ban included were nearly all people of middle eastern descent....

indeed

you could have just said that some of the people the original ban included were all citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen

the fact remains that the travel ban did not target most people of middle eastern descent

or the overwhelming majority of muslims in the region, not to mention the world


can we agree that the travel ban ignored more muslims than it targeted?

can we agree that the travel ban ignored more people of middle eastern descent than it targeted?

and can we agree that the initial travel ban targeted three countries outside the Middle East?

[ok doser]

In the countries in question that's fairly well the case, race isn't the same as ethnicity.

ok, let's define terms

when you use the term "race", what do you mean?

Racist people in the US look at countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria as being racially the same.

if you say so, i try to avoid interacting with ignorant people

[ok doser]

All of that said I was really looking at the immigration issues on the southern border, which seems to be Trump's singular obsession.

well, let's finish putting this "muslim travel ban" nonsense to bed first

[Alate_One]

can we agree that the travel ban ignored more muslims than it targeted?

Can you agree this is not at all the argument I was making? You're beating an imaginary dead horse.

5 of the seven countries would be considered by the average person with racist ideas as middle eastern. The other two you listed are still majority people of color.

Not included was any majority Muslim nation with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan.

[Alate_One]

ok, let's define terms

when you use the term "race", what do you mean?

By race I mean a group of people defined primarily by skin tone, hair color and texture which may or may not include a precise country of origin, but usually doesn't.

Race doesn't have a biological definition, as there are no consistent characters within a race. Ethnicity and ancestral populations can be detected, but that's different from race.

White usually just refers to people with lighter skin tone, eyes (sometimes) and lighter hair, usually with origins somewhere in Europe. It used to be defined specifically as only northern Europe (specifically English and French ancestry primarly) and not eastern Europe (Poles and Irish weren't white originally).

As a race "middle eastern" would include most of the countries of the middle east, but probably more to the average white person since determinations are often based on a person's appearance. I would argue that this particular racial definition is also relatively new, many of these people might formerly have been considered white.

[ok doser]

Can you agree this is not at all the argument I was making?

your statement that I responded to was:

Trump ... promotes ideas that discriminate on the basis of race and promotes policies that do the same.

as I've showed with the travel ban, it did not target race, it targeted national origin

5 of the seven countries would be considered by the average person with racist ideas as middle eastern.

again, i'll defer to your greater experience reading the minds of average people with racist ideas

i try to avoid them

The other two you listed are still majority people of color.

which color?

and were the minority who were not "people of color" excluded from the ban?

Not included was any majority Muslim nation with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan.

or "brown" countries with the largest muslim populations, say Indonesia, Pakistan, India

[ok doser]

By race I mean a group of people defined primarily by skin tone, hair color and texture ...

so to you race is defined primarily by appearance?

if someone "looks" a certain way, then you categorize them as a certain race?


obama's mother was of Irish heritage, i believe

his father was Kenyan

which "race" would you categorize obama as?

racist people tend to identify him as "black" because of his appearance - skin tone, hair color and texture, etc

non-racist people will note that he is mixed race, 50/50

[ok doser]

Not included was any majority Muslim nation with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan.

the same is true of the travel restrictions implemented by obama, the restrictions that were widened into a ban by trump

was it racist of obama to exclude majority Muslim nations with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan?

[Alate_One]

so to you race is defined primarily by appearance?

if someone "looks" a certain way, then you categorize them as a certain race?

These are not my categories, they are a societies' categories. Race is defined by society, in this case usually the dominant mostly white society. I see what society classes as race and try not to define people by race but by their individual experiences.

non-racist people will note that he is mixed race, 50/50

Someone has not heard of the one drop rule. :P

Also nearly all African Americans have some element of racial admixture from Europeans. Do you class all black people you see as "mixed race"? People from Africa also have a mixture of skin tones depending on where their ancestors lived on the continent. Some are lighter than others despite having 100% African ancestry. Would you assume those people were "mixed race" just by looking at them?

There are no non-racist people, only racist and anti-racist. Racism doesn't have to define a person either. A person can be racist or anti-racist in any given moment. I endeavor to be anti-racist but western society is a powerful messenger when it comes to race. It says that people with lighter skin are superior to those with darker skin. To pretend society is not racist is to be in denial.

[Alate_One]

the same is true of the travel restrictions implemented by obama, the restrictions that were widened into a ban by trump

was it racist of obama to exclude majority Muslim nations with a majority white population, say Azerbaijan?

A ban over an entire country is racist since it paints everyone in said country with the same brush. It's grouping people with racial stereotypes that is problematic. Restrictions based on actions would not be problematic so long as they were applied equally.

[Alate_One]

which "race" would you categorize obama as?

racist people tend to identify him as "black" because of his appearance - skin tone, hair color and texture, etc

Recognizing that society will typically class someone as "black" does not make one racist. However, Obama self identified as black.

[ok doser]

A ban over an entire country sis racist since it paints everyone in said country with the same brush.

was it racist to ban Germans in the first half of the 1940s?