What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

Clete

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My understanding is that you have read the Opening Post. Homosexuality is under Politics when you read what is to be in Politics as a Forum. Does that answer your question? I believe that homosexuality is against God's Law. As such, no one should say that it is not against the Law. Further, to make it not against the Law is not a valid approach when dealing with God's Law.

Jacob,

You clearly see that homosexuality is against the Mosaic Law and you state that you believe it is "bad and wrong" (i.e. immoral) and that those who practice it are worthy of death.

Do you understand that when Moses and Paul say that such people are worthy of death, that they mean that such people deserve to be executed by the government? It isn't talking merely about a condition of spiritual unfitness or separation from God or some other spiritual condition. The bible directly advocates that homosexuality should be considered a capital crime and that the government should enforce such a law and that any government that does not do so is unjust.

In short, do you agree that Christians should advocate the criminalization of homosexuality as well as the execution of anyone convicted of the crime?

Also, remember when discussing this with unbelievers that you're likely talking with someone who is a legal positivist. Meaning that they think that whatever is legal is also moral and that therefore since homosexuality is legal in the U.S. that it is not immoral to commit homosexual acts. They do not care about what the bible says about it. That's why the confusion about how your opening post fits into politics. They think that the bible is entirely a religious book and have no idea that God put a complete legal justice system in the bible and don't care. They think that politics is the pervue of popular opinion, not objective morality.

Clete
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
What about the approach you mention has anything to do with how we are to act and behave? That is, the just power to force, harass, pressure, and coerce people is not of God and you ask if it is okay when it is to obey God. I mean, certainly we are to obey God. But what is the best approach to teach people to obey God? And what do we do if people do not do so? Is that the best approach do you think?
Jacob, that's what I asked you. Do you believe that people possess the inalienable right to not be harassed, forced, pressured, coerced, etc., by police /government, for disobeying God?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
people obviously do not have the right to disobey the God from whom their rights eminate.
So people do not have the right to not believe in God? iow, people deserve to be harassed, forced, imprisoned, coerced, etc., by police /government, for not believing in God?
 

TrumpTrainCA

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No, they're not

I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.

You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.

I assume you want to criminalize sodomy. Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?

Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized. But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.
 

Jacob

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I think you did say that, its just that it didn't feel like you had really hit the nail on the head in regards to answering the question about why it belongs under politics so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. It wasn't my intent to correct you, just to ogment what you had said.
Thank you. Yes, it did augment what I had said.
If by politics we mean the popular opinion of the population at a large then yes, it is the only thing that permits it to exist within a society to any significant degree and certainly as merely an "alternative life style" rather than as the capital crime that it actually is.
Right.
We do learn about it from God, no doubt, as your opening post makes very clear, but divine revelation isn't necessary to understand that it is immoral. Homosexuality (and other forms of sexual immorality) lead to death from a dozen different directions. If that which leads to life and the enrichment of it is the good, then there is but one conclusion to be drawn about the moral nature of things like adultry, rape, molestation and homosexuality.

Clete
Amen. Sounds good Clete.
 

Jacob

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Jacob,

You clearly see that homosexuality is against the Mosaic Law and you state that you believe it is "bad and wrong" (i.e. immoral) and that those who practice it are worthy of death.

Do you understand that when Moses and Paul say that such people are worthy of death, that they mean that such people deserve to be executed by the government? It isn't talking merely about a condition of spiritual unfitness or separation from God or some other spiritual condition. The bible directly advocates that homosexuality should be considered a capital crime and that the government should enforce such a law and that any government that does not do so is unjust.

In short, do you agree that Christians should advocate the criminalization of homosexuality as well as the execution of anyone convicted of the crime?

Also, remember when discussing this with unbelievers that you're likely talking with someone who is a legal positivist. Meaning that they think that whatever is legal is also moral and that therefore since homosexuality is legal in the U.S. that it is not immoral to commit homosexual acts. They do not care about what the bible says about it. That's why the confusion about how your opening post fits into politics. They think that the bible is entirely a religious book and have no idea that God put a complete legal justice system in the bible and don't care. They think that politics is the pervue of popular opinion, not objective morality.

Clete

Is the criminalization of homosexuality a making it criminal? Because it already is criminal. Recriminalization would make it criminal again. Decriminalization would make it so that it is no longer criminal.

Yes, not only are people worthy of death but some may die because of it, whether by the hands of the state or by a judge and individuals involved with the execution, according to Torah Law that is. It is a capital crime and not enforcing it may be unjust. If someone caused another person's homosexuality that is a more difficult situation. But it needs to be dealt with, and repentance must be available even then and even so. To be honest, I don't believe that it is legal in the US. I understand that people might think that it is legal in the US. It is immoral, and a person may die if they commit homosexual acts. Yes, we have a complete legal system in the Torah. The Law. I can see how people have a view of politics that is unacceptable. I am not well versed in how to describe this though. Suffice it to say people are not really serious with God.
 

Jacob

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Jacob, that's what I asked you. Do you believe that people possess the inalienable right to not be harassed, forced, pressured, coerced, etc., by police /government, for disobeying God?

That is very difficult because you pit what may be seen as unjust against whether or not it is okay to disobey God. It's not.
 

Jacob

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I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.

You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.

I assume you want to criminalize sodomy. Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?

Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized. But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.

No one can make it legal. God has already stated that it is illegal.
 

Jacob

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Are there different ways or approaches to this subject, God's Law and Homosexuality, such as from Scripture and what is being looked at, thought of, or considered? For example, not reading a particular chapter for a reason? Or, viewing the entirety of the Law through the Ten Commandments?
 

Jacob

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In the United States of America are there any laws against homosexuality, such as God's Law or otherwise?
 

Clete

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Is the criminalization of homosexuality a making it criminal? Because it already is criminal. Recriminalization would make it criminal again. Decriminalization would make it so that it is no longer criminal.
Use whatever prefix you feel is appropriate. The point is that it is not merely immoral, it is a crime and it is, therefore, unjust for it to be legal.

Yes, not only are people worthy of death but some may die because of it, whether by the hands of the state or by a judge and individuals involved with the execution, according to Torah Law that is. It is a capital crime and not enforcing it may be unjust.
Torah Law is not in force in the United States, or anywhere else on the planet for that matter. The question is whether you think it should be a part of the American criminal code.

If someone caused another person's homosexuality that is a more difficult situation. But it needs to be dealt with, and repentance must be available even then and even so.
Homosexuality is caused, for the most part, by molesting children. The homosexual group NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) has a slogan that states, "Sex before eight or it's too late!" It is mostly boys who were molested between the ages of five and eight years who grow up to be homosexuals. Fortunately, most children who are so molested do not go on to be gay but the vast majority of gay men where repeatedly molested as children. It is the primary contributing factor. Also, the vast majority of child molestation is committed by men against boys (i.e. it is homosexual in nature).

Thus, if homosexuality was re-criminalized and punished according to the principles of justice (i.e. if homosexuals were executed upon conviction) you'd not only rid the society of homosexuality but of child molestation as well. You'd solve both the problem and it's primary cause.

To be honest, I don't believe that it is legal in the US. I understand that people might think that it is legal in the US.
Well, your belief doesn't come into it. The fact is that it is not only legal to be homosexual, it is legal for them to get married and enjoy all the societal benefits thereof.

It is immoral, and a person may die if they commit homosexual acts.
A person may die for driving their car too fast or for smoking cigarettes or eating too many cheeseburgers.

Yes, we have a complete legal system in the Torah. The Law. I can see how people have a view of politics that is unacceptable. I am not well versed in how to describe this though. Suffice it to say people are not really serious with God.
Well, you said a mouth full there!

Even the ones who are serious about God are serious about hating Him and anything that has to do with Him or justice or morality. If you notice, much, if not most, of liberalism is about making society such that people can be sexually immoral without consequence. Homosexuality - legal. Adultery - legal. Fornication - legal. Pornography - legal. Killing unwanted babies - legal. Child molestation is still illegal but the so called "age of consent" continues to be lowered by liberals. Even the average convicted rapist only spends less than five years in prison.

This county (the whole world really) has forgotten what justice looks like so long ago that it looks like barbarism to most people! Almost no one has any idea what justice looks like and would be appalled to hear someone describe it. Think of that! God, the only God that actually exists, who's character defines what is right and just looks to the average liberal like a totally uncivilized barbarian. It's no wonder they hate Him so much.

Clete
 
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Clete

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So people do not have the right to not believe in God?
They have the legal right but not the moral right.

iow, people deserve to be harassed, forced, imprisoned, coerced, etc., by police /government, for not believing in God?
No, of course not.

The distinction has to do with the difference between sin and crime. If the law is just then all crimes are sin but not all sin is criminal. The governing official is not there to enforce morality in general but rather criminal justice specifically.

However, just because a behavior is not criminal doesn't mean that it must be accepted and tolerated by others. The social stigmatization of immoral behavior of any stripe is a good thing. Just because it is legal to be foul mouthed, for example, doesn't mean that I am required to hire a vulgar man or to otherwise do business with him or to even be around him for that matter.

Clete
 

Clete

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I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.
You argue against yourself!

You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.
If not morality, on what basis would you make a laws against sex with animals or kids?

I assume you want to criminalize sodomy. Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?
There is no need to make any assumptions. Read the opening post. It is really clear.

Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized. But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.
On what planet could you have the former without the later?

See the point? You argue against yourself again!

The fact is that it does effect others! Not only does it serve to degrade the moral base of society (not the least of which is the single family unit, by the way) but when you lower standards of morality in one place it is lowered in every place because there is one standard of morality - ONE - and only one. To have a lower a moral standard is to have an immoral standard and when your standard of morality is immoral then where can it possibly stop but with the end of the civilization and death on every side?


Clete
 
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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
People are free to have sex however they want to.

No, they're not

I meant between consenting adults obviously, not animals or kids or something like that.

yes, bestiality and pedophilia are two ways in which we, as a society, have chosen to regulate people's sexual behavior

before our society was destroyed by those mindlessly bleating "consenting adults! consenting adults!" we also regulated pornography, adultery, divorce and, yes, homosexuality

You guys are trying to impose a morality in the form of a law and you cannot do that in our society.

of course we can and do

unless you can come up with a law that is not based on morality? :think:


answer: you can't

all law is based on morality

the question today is - on whose morality should we choose to base civil law?

God's or hollywood's?

I assume you want to criminalize sodomy.

between a man and another man

or a woman and another woman

Will you arrest a man and a woman who have sodomy too?

if they're not married?

you bet

Gay marriage is the problem. THAT should never have been legalized.

no, marriage should never have been allowed by the churches to be co-opted by the state

what we have now is two marriage systems - one in the church, more or less faithful to the Word of God


and a civil marriage system, corrupted and vulnerable to the whims of public opinion



But if two adults want to have weird sex that is nobody's business but their own.

if a father wants to sexually molest his ten year old daughter with her consent, in what way is that your business?
 
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