Long post.
Prepare thyself, for ye are entering an area of study whom yours truly loveth to discuss.
:clete:
A fountain is a fountain of water
I would imagine that we agree that when the Bible says "fountain" in this passage, it's talking about a fountain of water, yes?
But the phrase isn't just "fountain."
It's "all the fountains of the great deep broke forth."
"Fountains of the Great Deep"
Not
"Fountains caused by falling mountains"
Ha! No one said the fountains were "merely a spring."
But a spring isn't caused by meteors. It's caused by water coming up from a subterranean chamber.
The word "fountain" in Genesis 7 has the implication of a spring of water coming up from the ground.
Oh wait, that's what the Hydroplate theory proposes...
and the "main sea" is the "great deep" (as a surging mass of water),
It doesn't seem like you actually know what the HPT actually proposes are the fountains of the great deep.
Here, let me give you an image that I think will help you understand just what kind of "surging mass of water" it proposes...
From:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/TechnicalNotes6.html
Right, it's NOT imaginary.
Scripture says that God "laid out the earth ABOVE the waters."
To Him who laid out the earth above the waters, For His mercy endures forever; - Psalm 136:6
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm136:6&version=NKJV
Scripture says that "the earth [was] standing out of water and in the water."
For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. - 2 Peter 3:5-6
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:5-6&version=NKJV
Scripture says that God founded the earth upon the seas and established it upon the waters.
The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.For He has founded it upon the seas, And established it upon the waters. - Psalm 24:1-2
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm24:1-2&version=NKJV
superheated underground water supply.
Tidal pumping (caused by the orbit of the earth) would superheat any trapped water below the crust of the earth.
Question for you:
What happens when you plug up a bottle of water, and then heat it up? It eventually pops, right?
Let me tell you a story, and afterwards, I'll show you exactly where this story is in the Bible.
You may claim, "Oh, it's not in the Bible, I've never even heard this story before! Not even my pastor has heard of this story."
Well, it's not a story that your pastor would tell you, because not many pastors do Bible studies on the lesser taught books of the Bible. But I assure you, it's in the Bible.
Let's begin.
Recall what happened in the Garden of Eden, when man was kicked out of the garden, and then 1650 years later when all the people of the earth only thought evil thoughts.
There was a source of water in the Garden of Eden. It flowed out of the garden and was large enough to split into four large rivers which watered the earth.
Now, imagine that that spring of water comes directly from a subterranean chamber of water that encircles the globe under the crust of the earth. God sees the wickedness on the earth, and decides He's going to judge the earth, so He decides to plug up this spring of water.
So pressure builds, and builds, and builds, for centuries it builds. All the while, the great rivers of the earth have dried up, there's a huge worldwide drought, because there's no water coming from the Garden of Eden anymore.
Along comes Noah, and God recognizes that the pressure chamber He made is about to pop. So He tells Noah that a flood is coming, and to build a boat, and to warn everyone.
And this after a drought, you might think Noah is crazy to say there's a flood coming...
Now imagine a group of people getting mad at God because there's a drought, and they remember a story passed down to them by their grandparents, who got it from their grandparents, who got the story from Adam and Eve, which tells of a river in the Garden of Eden that split into four rivers that watered the earth. They're getting desperate, and decide to go take back that garden that their great grandparents Adam and Eve were kicked out of, and however they can, to turn the water flow back on.
So they form a party, and travel to find this Garden of Eden with this legendary water source, to take it back from God.
Eventually, they find a ring of mountains, and above those mountains they see this huge tree, which stretches across the tops of the mountains on either side of it, one that has grown due to the abundant water source it sits on top of, the spring which used to water the entire earth, plugged up because there was no one to tend to the garden for all those centuries, a tree that had been growing for about 1,650 years.
They get to the entrance of the garden by following the former path of the river, the entrance being on the east side, and the men enter the garden, and they see that there's no water flowing from the spring, no way to turn the flow of water back on, but they see that the river-bed leads to the underside of this giant tree, in the middle of the garden. They decide to cut down the tree.
Now, a little bit about this tree. This is a HUGE tree. It's branches span from mountain top over the valley it's in to the mountain top across from the first. Even the smallest boughs are bigger than the largest trees on earth today.
(I wonder if one of the men there stopped and thought, what if we sell all this wood to that nut who's building a boat in the middle of a drought.. what's his name... Oh right, NOAH! I wonder if he'd buy it from us.)
Suddenly, the ground begins to tremble, the nations shook. The crust of the earth broke where it was thinnest, at the garden of Eden (due to the natural well of water that was there), and all the water that had been stored beneath the earth to water the earth pushed up through the ground, ripping the ground open, some of the ground falls into the torrent of water that's coming up from this crack in the earth, which is growing larger every second due to the extreme force at which the water is raging out of the ground.
(From:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview7.html)
This crack kept growing and growing at about 3 miles per second, wrapping around the earth like the seam on a baseball in the space of about 2 hours, the "T" where the ends of the crack met (and where one end kept going) can bee seen at the marker in the following image:
And on that day, all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
That story can be found in Ezekiel 31. There's more detail to it than I have written down, but I included the important parts.
Don't believe me, still think it's not in the Bible?
Read it for yourself:
Now it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying,“Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude:
‘Whom are you like in your greatness?Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon, With fine branches that shaded the forest, And of high stature; And its top was among the thick boughs.The waters made it grow; Underground waters gave it height, With their rivers running around the place where it was planted, And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field.‘Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field; Its boughs were multiplied, And its branches became long because of the abundance of water, As it sent them out.All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young; And in its shadow all great nations made their home.‘Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches, Because its roots reached to abundant waters.The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it; The fir trees were not like its boughs, And the chestnut trees were not like its branches; No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty.I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches, So that all the trees of Eden envied it, That were in the garden of God.’“
Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height,therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness.And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it.‘On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens, And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches—So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them. ‘For they have all been delivered to death, To the depths of the earth, Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’“Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord God.” - Ezekiel 31:1-18
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel31:1-18&version=NKJV
Would you like to go through this verse by verse?
You seem to be trying to make the passage say something it doesn't say.
Oh, the irony.
:mock:
See above.
The passage stated that the waters prevailed (were strong, mighty) upwards 15 cubits during the 40 days and nights (Genesis 7:17-23) and then continued to prevail (were strong, mighty) for 150 days afterwards (Genesis 7:24), but by the end of the 150 days the waters were abated (Genesis 8:3).
The waters were on the earth for a lot longer than 150 days.
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. - Genesis 7:11
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:11&version=NKJV
Noah was 600 years old when "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."
And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, that the waters were dried up from the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark and looked, and indeed the surface of the ground was dry. - Genesis 8:13
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis8:13&version=NKJV
Just under a year later, about 10.5 months later in fact, the waters were dried up from the earth and Noah was able to open up the door, and then almost TWO MONTHS LATER, the earth was dried, and Noah was able to leave the ark.
Not only that, but the water was still receding, and only during the days of Peleg was the earth divided, as before that there would still have been land-bridges between the continents, FOUR GENERATIONS LATER.
To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was
Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. - Genesis 10:25
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis10:25&version=NKJV
It sounds to me as if surges of water kept washing over the tops of the mountains for 150 days, which can be explained by a lengthy meteor shower and the power of the waves that are able to surge that high.
Please provide an estimate of how many meteors, and their sizes, are needed for this to occur.
Then, point out where they hit, and any evidence that shows that this actually occurred, AND show how it would have caused this super-continent to break up and spread out...
Oh, and you also have to explain how the meteors would hit in the same spot or near the same spot on the rotating and orbiting earth.
You can't, because it never happened, and it's not possible EXCEPT through divine intervention, which again, is a rescue device for your theory.
It's just an appeal to the miracles, your go-to rescue device. I'll explain below what that is.
A meteor shower could most definitely cause the devastation described in the Bible and leave the evidence we have found to prove that the earth was hit with meteor strikes.
A meteor shower would leave debris, craters, and other evidence that just doesn't exist.
Start providing evidence for your claims.
All explanations for the flood have God using a miracle to cause the destruction of the cataclysm.
First of all... "destruction of the cataclysm"?
A cataclysm is "a large-scale and violent event in the natural world."
An event cannot be "destroyed". You may want to fix your wording.
And second.... Please provide the passage of scripture that describes a miraculous meteor shower causing the flood.
The simplicity of the meteor shower is that it can be easily seen in by evidence of meteor strikes we can find around the world.
Then you should be able to provide the evidence you claim exists.
Please do so.
From the time Noah was told about the flood until the flood itself took 120 years, which was plenty of time for the meteors in space to travel to the earth.
Once again, miracles/divine intervention are a rescue device to your theory of the Flood event, as there is no mention of miracles in the flood account.
It describes a series of events that occur as a result of the fountains of the great deep being broken up, and the windows of heaven being opened.
And we haven't even gotten to the geological evidence for the HPT.
Revelation shows that there will be further meteor strikes as part of the fulfillment of prophecy.
We're not talking about Revelation here, dummy.
We're talking about the Flood.
Stay on topic.
Show the scripture that describes meteors hitting the earth to cause a flood.
Oh, and that "further meteor strikes" comment is called "begging the question."
I read the scripture plainly and simply, but have come to different conclusions about how the words are translated than the Hydroplate Theory does.
You clearly do not.
Not once so far have you quoted scripture to support your beliefs.
Yet, I can and have quoted scripture to support the HPT.
That alone speaks volumes about the validity of your theory.
It does in Revelation, but I am assuming you are referring to the account of the flood?
:duh:
Still waiting for the scripture that describes a meteor shower causing the flood.
I am assuming that the continents formed Pangaea (or a similar super-continent) before the flood, which is also assumed by the Hydroplate Theory.
Incorrect.
The HPT doesn't assume "Pangaea."
It assumes that this:
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. - Genesis 1:6-10
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:6-10&version=NKJV
is true.
Pangaea is a secular idea, one that requires (catastrophic) plate tectonics to work, which doesn't fit the geological evidence at all, and the continents don't fit together like a puzzle piece to support the idea anyways, despite the claims that they do.
As shown below, the HPT has earth being created with a sphere of crust, a global continent, dividing the waters above from the waters below (like it says in Genesis 1), and that as the crust settled, it formed "pillars" which supported the entire crust, above which is where the seas would have been.
Like so:
Here is an image that depicts what earth might have looked like by verses 9-10 (with more seas than this of course):
(credit, Bryan Nickel, and I think for the previous image as well)
Not one giant super-continent surrounded by an ocean, but a GLOBAL continent, with seas scattered around the surface, just like Genesis says.
I am assuming that Noah was somewhere in the middle of that continent.
I am assuming that the meteor shower hit mostly in the middle of the main ocean on the opposite side of the earth from the location of the ark.
Noah gave the account of what he saw, not what he couldn't see.
First of all, Noah isn't the person giving the account.
That would be MOSES, who got it directly from God.
And last I checked, God can see what goes on on the entire earth, and could certainly relay such to Moses.
I have no idea what you mean by a "rescue device" and I suspect that makes two of us.
I believe the proper term for it is "ad hoc rescue."
"Rescue device" is pretty self explanatory, I'm not sure why you wouldn't have even some idea what it means...
It's a device (in this case, an idea or concept) that is used to rescue your "meteor shower theory" (MST).
In other words, you're making stuff up to try to validate your position, instead of letting scripture speak for itself.
False.
The crust of the earth is not the firmament described in that passage which explicitly states that the firmament is the sky.
https://youtu.be/tpQSPaJ-X_U?t=2913
The five minutes after the point in the video I linked to explains verse 8 extremely well. (I recommend you watch the whole thing, because I'd like to know your thoughts on it.)
Could you please point out where in the verse that it says the firmament is the sky?
Because there are TWO firmaments in Genesis 1.
In Chapter 1, verses 6, 7, 8, there's the firmament called "Heaven," and then there's the "firmament
of the heavens" in verses 14, 15, 17, and 20.
The waters under the firmament (the sky) are gathered together into the main sea so that the dry land (the crust) would be exposed.
Here is one of your biggest mistakes, and this is one of your foundational premises:
The verse does not say that "the waters under the firmament" were gathered together.
It says:
Then God said, “Let the waters under
the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. - Genesis 1:9
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:9&version=NKJV
There is no "firmament" in verse 9.
Have you forgotten the very first verse in the Bible?
In the beginning God created
the heavens and the earth. - Genesis 1:1
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:1&version=NKJV
As I said above, there are TWO firmaments in Genesis 1, the firmament called Heaven, and the firmament of the heavens.
The firmament called Heaven is made in verses 6-7.
The firmament of the heavens was made in verse 1.
I would presume that we BOTH agree that the heavens are ABOVE the earth, and not below it, yes?
If we assume, like you assert, that the firmament in Genesis 1 ONLY describes the heavens, that the "Heaven" Genesis 1:8 is that firmament, then we're left with waters above the heavens and waters below the heavens, and a firmament dividing those waters.
Unless you believe that there's water in the heavens, I don't see how your position could be correct.
Firmament, as the root word "firm" implies, describes something firm or unyielding.
The latin word firmamentum (literally, "that which strengthens or supports) means "a strengthening, support, prop, stay."
The typical usage of the word describes the sky above the earth, just like you assume.
However, the Hebrew word used that was translated "firmamentum" in the Latin Vulgate does not inherently mean such.
The word 'raqia' simply means "expanse."
God made an expanse to divide the waters above from the waters below.
The root word for 'raqiyah,' 'raqa,' is a verb:
| a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch. |
"To pound the earth."
"To expand (by hammering)"
"To overlay (with thin sheets of metal)"
"To beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out,
into plates)"
All of these can be used to describe the continental crust of the earth.
Particularly "to overlay."
If you read Genesis 1 literally and carefully, you wouldn't make the mistake of thinking the firmament is the crust instead of the sky.
This coming from someone who thinks "the heavens" always and only means "the firmament," yet has no scriptural support for this assertion.
I see there is no comparison to the meteor shower theory.
The point was that of all the verses that talk about the flood, most of them fit the HPT.
You have yet to show us any verses that fit this "meteor shower" theory.
So far, it appears to be you.
:think:
Nope.
I've already pointed out one of your errors, where you claimed that "the waters under the firmament" were gathered together, whereas scripture actually says "the water under the heavens."
