Scientists Question Darwinism

[JudgeRightly]

I will use Exodus 20:11 later too advance my argument but first let is look at this verse first:

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

Here the Hebrew word is translated bara'. The following verse uses the same Hebrew word when speaking of the creation of the earth:

"For thus saith the LORD that created (bara') the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created (bara') it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:8).​

The LORD formed the earth to be inhabited. And for it to be inhabited it was absolutely necessary for there to be a source of both light and energy so originally there was a sun close enough so it could provide both light and energy. However, by the second verse of the book of Genesis we read that there was darkness on the surface of the deep seas:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

Since the earth was created to be inhabited and since by verse two there was no source of energy and light there had been a change in the original make-up of the heaven and the earth. So after this change the LORD began to re-form the heavens and the earth to make the earth inhabitable for mankind. At first, the Spirit of God served as a temporary source of light:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" (Gen.1:2-3).​

That served as only a temporary source of light because on the forth day we read:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also" (Gen.1:16).​

Here the word "made" actually means that the LORD arranged them and not brought them into existence out of nothing because the stars had already been created out of nothing. And that brings us to the verse you keep using to try to support your ideas:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

The LORD dealt with the heavens when He rearranged the stars, especially the sun. He rearranged the earth because previously it was without form but He now formed it to be inhabited.

So we can understand that the LORD did not create the heavens and the earth in six days but instead He dealt with both during the six days in order to make the earth into a form which could be inhabited by mankind, including providing a permanant source of light and energy.

Way ahead of you, Jerry.

Which part did I ignore?

God created the earth, then formed it.

Just like ALL of Genesis 1 says.

You're intentionally compressing Isaiah 45:18 to try to fit it in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, when the passage fits much better across ALL of Genesis 1.



Of course not, because God hadn't formed it into anything yet.

Why is that a problem?

There is no scripture that says that there was anything resembling life other than God by the end of Genesis 1:1, so why try to read into the passage what clearly is not there?



And?

Actually, did you notice the "and"?

"And" is a conjuction word, used to join two phrases or sentences together, it allows for the continuation of a thought.

"God created the heavens and the earth AND the earth was without form and void..."

But God wasn't done yet.

God had started his creation, but He wasn't finished forming it into something habitable.



I know that the Lord Jesus wasn't finished making just because He created something.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

You're trying to say that God created everything perfect, and then made it into something else.

Whereas SCRIPTURE says that God created everything, and then made it into something perfect over the next 6 days, and then He rested.



You're equivocating.

"Create" and "form/make" are two different words in the Hebrew.

They do have similar meanings, but the word used in Genesis 1:1 is "bara," create:

Spoiler

Strong's h1254

- Lexical: בָּרָא
- Transliteration: bara'
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: baw-raw'
- Definition: choose.
- Origin: A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes).
- Usage: choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
- Translated as (count): created (5), have created (4), he created (4), choose (3), has created (3), I create (3), and create (2), And created (2), Create (2), that you were created (2), the Creator (2), they are created (2), when they were created (2), and creates (1), and cut down (1), and dispatch (1), and they were created (1), and will create (1), and you shall cut it down (1), for I have created (1), have been done (1), have You made (1), he who created (1), I have created (1), in creating (1), make (1), now your Creator (1), that created (1), that created you (1), to make yourselves fat (1), whom shall be created (1), you were created (1).

The words used in Isaiah in the passage you're trying to squeeze between 1:1 and 1:2 are "bara," create, "yatsar," to form, and "asah"

Yatsar, to form

Spoiler

Strong's h3335

- Lexical: יָצַר
- Transliteration: yatsar
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: yaw-tsar'
- Definition: formed.
- Origin: Probably identical with yatsar (through the squeezing into shape); ((compare yatsa')); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. Form a resolution).
- Usage: X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.
- Translated as (count): of the potter (5), the potter (3), And formed (2), and he who formed you (2), have made (2), he formed (2), of a potter (2), that formed (2), that I have formed (2), that the maker (2), the former (2), and fashioned (1), and forms (1), and he who formed (1), and his Maker me (1), and to him who fashioned (1), do formed (1), earthen (1), fashions (1), formed (1), frame (1), has formed (1), have I formed (1), He fashions (1), he had formed (1), he who formed (1), he who forms (1), his Maker (1), I form (1), I formed (1), I have formed (1), I have formed him (1), I have purposed (1), of as the potter (1), of him who framed (1), of in the potter (1), of like a potter (1), our potter (1), potter (1), that formed me (1), that frames (1), that is formed (1), the potters (1), they who make (1), to the potter (1), to the potter it (1), were fashioned (1), you and formed you (1).

Asah, to make

Spoiler

Strong's h6213

- Lexical: עָשָׂה
- Transliteration: asah
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: aw-saw'
- Definition: accomplish.
- Origin: A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows).
- Usage: accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
- Translated as (count): do (112), to do (91), did (83), And did (72), and do (68), And made (60), he did (60), and he made (59), made (53), And you shall make (45), And he did (40), He made (35), you have done (34), Make (32), shall you do (31), had done (28), I have done (27), had made (26), shall you make (26), has done (24), you shall do (24), does (23), will do (23), have done (21), he has done (21), do do (18), done (17), and make (16), have made (16), have you done (16), I will do (16), shall do (16), he had done (15), you shall make (15), have I done (13), to make atonement (13), And they made (12), he had made (12), that do (12), they did (12), to observe (12), they have done (11), shall it be done (10), shall we do (10), that does (10), And worked (9), shall I do (9), so did (9), they made (9), to perform (9), will I do (9), you do (9), you shall offer (9), and kept (8), and to do (8), and you shall do (8), do done (8), is done (8), shall be done (8), they have committed (8), to be done (8), to celebrate (8), and done (7), and have made (7), And shall offer (7), deal (7), do make (7), that made (7), you did (7), And they did (6), doing (6), has made (6), he makes (6), I did (6), in doing (6), keep (6), show (6), to work (6), will You do (6), and I will make (5), But did (5), deals (5), execute (5), have they done (5), he has committed (5), he has made (5), I made (5), is made (5), makes (5), shall you offer (5), showed (5), they had made (5), worked (5), you have made (5), you will do (5), Also he made (4), and commits (4), and dress (4), and I will do (4), and maintain (4), and shall do (4), And they kept (4), and Thus did (4), and you shall offer (4), can do (4), commit (4), do made (4), executed (4), has worked (4), he does (4), his Maker (4), I do (4), I will make (4), shall he do (4), shall make (4), shall yield (4), that makes (4), we shall do (4), we will do (4), will we do (4), you shall prepare (4), and bear (3), And he shall do (3), and I will execute (3), and makes (3), and offer (3), And they shall make (3), and will execute (3), are done (3), be done (3), by doing (3), dealt (3), have committed (3), he shall make (3), he shall prepare (3), he who does (3), he worked (3), I have made (3), prepare (3), shall be made (3), she had made (3), that executes (3), that they should do (3), that worked (3), the maker (3), they have made (3), you have dealt (3), you have showed (3), you to do (3), about to do (2), and brought forth (2), and commit (2), and dealt (2), and execute (2), and had made (2), And has done (2), and have done (2), and have gotten (2), And he worked (2), and I will even do (2), and it shall be performed (2), And let them make (2), and let us make (2), and offered (2), And ordained (2), and shall execute (2), and shall make (2), and shall prepare (2), and show (2), And showing (2), and shows (2), and they shall deal (2), And they worked (2), and to make (2), and will keep (2), and will make (2), and works (2), and you shall also make (2), But he did (2), But I worked (2), can I do (2), do did (2), do does (2), do executed (2), do show (2), do they did (2), do to do (2), do you (2), for he has done (2), had prepared (2), has been done (2), has committed (2), has dealt (2), has executed (2), have dealt (2), have showed (2), have they made (2), he has worked (2), he offered (2), he shall do (2), he shall offer (2), he showed (2), he who made (2), he will do (2), he will make (2), I make (2), I shall do (2), I will execute (2), I will show (2), is worked (2), it shall be made (2), it These things did (2), kept (2), labored (2), let him do (2), Let us make (2), may be done (2), my maker (2), of the workmen (2), of those who do (2), perform (2), procure (2), shall commit (2), shall prepare (2), shall you prepare (2), she had done (2), she had prepared (2), she has done (2), she has worked (2), She makes (2), that did (2), that had done (2), that he made (2), that I may show (2), that they may do (2), that they may make (2), that were warriors (2), that you may do (2), that you should do (2), Then made (2), they commit (2), they had committed (2), they had done (2), they have worked (2), they shall keep (2), they who make (2), to act (2), to bring (2), to commit (2), To execute (2), To Him who made (2), to make (2), to offer (2), to prepare (2), we do (2), we have done (2), will make (2), will perform (2), will work (2), works (2), yielding (2), you Deal (2), you have committed (2), you made (2), you may do (2), you shall observe (2), your maker (2), - (1), accomplish (1), advanced (1), against the workers (1), against those who do (1), also let keep (1), also made (1), And and will do (1), and as he made (1), and be doing (1), and bring forth (1), and brought it forth (1), and committed (1), and deal (1), and decked (1), and did work (1), and do you (1), and does (1), and dressed (1), and fashioned me (1), and Furthermore he made (1), And got (1), and had done (1), and had worked (1), And he gathered (1), And he had prepared (1), and he makes (1), and he prepared (1), And he set (1), and he shall execute (1), And he shall offer (1), and he shall prepare (1), and held (1), and hold (1), and I did (1), and I have done (1), And I made (1), And I will make you (1), and If it do (1), and it brought forth (1), and it practiced (1), and it shall be done (1), and it shall bring forth (1), and keep (1), and made him (1), and made ready (1), And of it you shall make (1), and offer it (1), and pare (1), and perform (1), and performed (1), and practice (1), and prepared (1), and put (1), and shall be done (1), and shall come to pass (1), and shall deal (1), and shall I make (1), and shall it be meet (1), and shall you do (1), and shall you make (1), and surely (1), and that he spends (1), and that may yield (1), and they dressed (1), and they have done (1), and they performed (1), and they shall do (1), and those who were doing (1), and Thus shall he do (1), and Thus will I execute (1), and to be made (1), and to him and did (1), and to hinder (1), and to perform (1), and we will do (1), and we will show (1), and whereof were made (1), and who did (1), and who made (1), and Why he did (1), and Why you shall make (1), and will offer (1), and will perform it (1), and work (1), and yet he shall keep (1), And you shall keep (1), and you shall prepare (1), apt (1), are we at (1), as has been done (1), be committed (1), be made (1), bring it to pass (1), bring to pass (1), bruised (1), But do (1), but have done (1), But show (1), but they did (1), but they do them (1), but they made (1), but they who deal (1), But worked (1), but you shall make (1), by carefully (1), by preparing (1), commits (1), committing (1), could have been done (1), deal you (1), did he make (1), did I make (1), did make (1), did they bestow (1), did we make (1), do and he did (1), do been done (1), do but make (1), do dealt (1), do dressed (1), do execute (1), do followed (1), do have done (1), do he did (1), do He made (1), do held (1), do him (1), do it was meet (1), do kept (1), do me (1), do observed (1), do ought to be done (1), do perform (1), do performed (1), do sake you did (1), do to (1), do worked (1), do you displease (1), doer (1), effect (1), even he does (1), Execute you (1), executes (1), flew (1), for doing (1), for him who does (1), for they had executed (1), for to do (1), for work (1), for working (1), from doing (1), from it to make (1), from offering (1), from those who they would do (1), from you to do (1), fulfilling (1), furnish (1), go about (1), govern (1), great (1), had showed (1), had they done (1), had they prepared (1), has brought (1), has done them (1), has fulfilled (1), has gotten (1), has he dealt (1), has he done (1), has he gotten (1), has he who works (1), has made me (1), has set (1), has taken (1), have appointed (1), have kept (1), have made me (1), have procured (1), have set (1), have we done (1), have You made (1), have you served (1), He appointed (1), He does execute (1), he executed (1), he executes (1), he fits (1), he had prepared (1), he had showed (1), he had worked (1), he has executed (1), he has gotten (1), He has not dealt (1), he has prepared (1), he maintain (1), he make (1), he may make (1), he must do (1), he shall deal (1), he shall surely (1), he should do (1), he was to make (1), he who gets (1), he who works (1), He will fulfill (1), he will show (1), him he shall work (1), himself (1), how to work (1), I deal (1), I got (1), I had made (1), I have executed (1), I have made them (1), I have prepared (1), I have showed (1), I shall prepare (1), I should do (1), I should have worked (1), I was made (1), I will even deal (1), I will offer (1), I will prepare (1), I will surely (1), I will undo (1), I worked (1), if shall do (1), if you thoroughly (1), in bruising (1), in executing (1), in his Maker (1), in order to do (1), in so doing (1), in to offer (1), indeed (1), is committed (1), is dressed (1), it shall accomplish (1), it shall be done (1), it shall be offered (1), it should bring forth (1), it yield (1), Let do (1), let it be done (1), let make (1), made him (1), make up (1), may be used (1), may do (1), may you offer (1), me I will do (1), men (1), Moreover he made (1), Moreover he provided (1), nor done (1), not doing (1), not made (1), of doing (1), of making (1), of offering (1), of the doers (1), of those who did (1), of those who have the charge (1), of you have they dealt (1), of you they commit (1), offer (1), on doing (1), on that which is not? for certainly (1), on you to do (1), ought to be done (1), ought to do (1), our maker (1), prepared (1), procured (1), ready dressed (1), seeing you do (1), shall accomplish (1), shall be given (1), shall be offered (1), shall bring to pass (1), shall deal (1), shall have done (1), shall he make (1), shall keep (1), shall offer (1), shall provide (1), shall they make it (1), shall you deal (1), shall you keep (1), she had worked (1), should be done (1), should become (1), should he deal with (1), should make (1), showest (1), So did you get (1), so do (1), so he made (1), so I did (1), so shall he do (1), so they did (1), So they executed (1), such as did (1), than his maker (1), that are done (1), that be done (1), that commit (1), that deals (1), that exercise (1), that has done (1), that have gotten (1), that he did (1), that he may do (1), that he performed (1), that he would do (1), that I have not done (1), that I may (1), that I may do (1), that I must do (1), that I should do (1), that I would do (1), that is done (1), that is worked (1), that it might bring forth (1), that it should bring forth (1), that make (1), that may do (1), that sacrificed (1), that shall be done (1), that shall you do (1), that should do (1), that take (1), that they may labor (1), that they should make (1), that they would do (1), that they would keep (1), that to those who did (1), that was made (1), that was ordained (1), that was used (1), that we may sacrifice (1), that we will deal (1), that were made (1), that you do (1), that you might do (1), that you will also show (1), that you would keep (1), the doer (1), the work (1), the worker (1), the workmen (1), themselves to do (1), then do (1), Then he made (1), Then shall you do (1), then show (1), Then worked (1), then you shall make (1), Then you shall sacrifice (1), therefore and do (1), therefore did (1), therefore make (1), Therefore will I do (1), Therefore you shall deal (1), thereof he makes (1), thereof you shall make (1), they bring forth (1), they bruised (1), they committed (1), they do (1), they had gotten (1), they have done them (1), they have gotten (1), they kept (1), they must do (1), they practice it (1), they prepared (1), they shall also make (1), they shall also prepare (1), they shall do (1), they shall give (1), they shall have worked (1), they shall make (1), they should do (1), they who do (1), they who work (1), they worked (1), those who did (1), those who they make (1), thus shall he do him (1), Thus shall they prepare (1), to be put in execution (1), to be woven (1), to carry (1), to deal (1), to do them (1), to him as you did (1), to imitate (1), to its maker (1), to keep (1), to pass (1), To practice (1), to show (1), to the doers (1), to those who did (1), to yield (1), to you to do (1), trimmed (1), until we shall have made ready (1), was busy (1), was done (1), was held (1), was industrious (1), was made (1), was worked (1), we did (1), we may do (1), we will certainly (1), We will make (1), We will surely (1), were committed (1), were occupied (1), were prepared (1), were working (1), what has been done (1), When he made (1), when I have executed (1), when I have worked (1), when I shall have executed (1), when they shall make (1), When you did (1), where he does work (1), whether they have done (1), who deals (1), who is made (1), who made (1), Who makes (1), who worked (1), will certainly (1), will deal (1), will do us (1), will dress (1), will I certainly do (1), will I do it (1), will maintain (1), will requite (1), will You execute (1), will You show (1), working (1), would happen (1), would make (1), you and cause (1), you and make (1), you but will make (1), you did deal (1), you had made (1), you have gotten (1), you have granted (1), you have maintained (1), you have shown (1), you have to do (1), you have used (1), you make (1), you might do (1), you ought to do (1), you practice (1), you prepare (1), you shall both do (1), you shall deal (1), you shall keep (1), you shall show (1), you should do (1), you then have dealt (1), you then may you do (1), you to keep (1), you when I shall execute (1), you will make (1), you will offer (1), you work (1), yourself to work (1).

For thus says the Lord, Who created [bara] the heavens, Who is God, Who formed [yatsar] the earth and made [asah] it, Who has established it, Who did not create [bara] it in vain, Who formed [yatsar] it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord , and there is no other. - Isaiah 45:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:18&version=NKJV

God did not create [bara] it in vain, like you're trying to assert, even if unintentionally, but he FORMED IT (yatsar) to be inhabited.

That is a very good description of what God did between the beginning of day one, in Genesis 1:1, and the end of Day 6, where God had finished making it inhabitable for man.

You're the one asserting that God created in vain, so that he had to make again.



This coming from someone who's not using any.



I apologize, then. I must have misunderstood what you said.



Which does NOT change the fact that there are no precepts/commandments in Genesis 1:27, but there IS a precept/commandment in Exodus 20:8-11.



I agree that that is the primary point he's making.

But as a result of his discourse, we ALSO learn that man and woman were made FROM THE BEGINNING of the creation, and not after and undetermined amount of time.

Days 1-6 are from the beginning of creation.

Creation is on day one, man was made on the sixth day.



And you're missing the point I was making.

Jesus said "from the beginning of the creation."

Moses said "for in six days God made the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah said For thus says the Lord, Who created [bara] the heavens, Who is God, Who formed [yatsar] the earth and made [asah] it, Who has established it, Who did not create [bara] it in vain, Who formed [yatsar] it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord , and there is no other. - Isaiah 45:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:18&version=NKJV

Moses ALSO wrote Genesis 1, the whole chapter, which describes the process of God creating the universe, but not in vain (He didn't create it only to have it destroyed), and then forming [yatsar] the earth to make it habitable.



No, I simply read the text as it is, instead of trying to fit my own ideas into the text and trying to squeeze in a gap between verses that simply doesn't exist.



Why is it so hard for you to fathom that God simply made something, and then worked over the next six days to perfect it, and make it habitable, exactly as described in Genesis 1?



:blabla:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Way ahead of you, Jerry.

So that is the reason why you quoted what I wrote and then just ignored everything that I wrote?

 

[JudgeRightly]

So that is the reason why you quoted what I wrote and then just ignored everything that I wrote?

Everything that you wrote was already addressed in my post that I quoted.

Which means you need to address what I said before you can make the argument you're trying to make.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Shall we go back to Ex 20:11?
[Exo 20:11 KJV] 11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I will use Exodus 20:11 later too advance my argument but first let is look at this verse first:

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

Here the Hebrew word is translated bara'. The following verse uses the same Hebrew word when speaking of the creation of the earth:

"For thus saith the LORD that created (bara') the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created (bara') it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:8).​

The LORD formed the earth to be inhabited. And for it to be inhabited it was absolutely necessary for there to be a source of both light and energy so originally there was a sun close enough so it could provide both light and energy. However, by the second verse of the book of Genesis we read that there was darkness on the surface of the deep seas:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

Since the earth was created to be inhabited and since by verse two there was no source of energy and light there had been a change in the original make-up of the heaven and the earth. So after this change the LORD began to re-form the heavens and the earth to make the earth inhabitable for mankind. At first, the Spirit of God served as a temporary source of light:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" (Gen.1:2-3).​

That served as only a temporary source of light because on the forth day we read:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also" (Gen.1:16).​

Here the word "made" actually means that the LORD arranged them and not brought them into existence out of nothing because the stars had already been created out of nothing. And that brings us to the verse you keep using to try to support your ideas:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

The LORD dealt with the heavens when He rearranged the stars, especially the sun. He rearranged the earth because previously it was without form but He now formed it to be inhabited.

So we can understand that the LORD did not create the heavens and the earth in six days but instead He dealt with both during the six days in order to make the earth into a form which could be inhabited by mankind, including providing a permanant source of light and energy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Everything that you wrote was already addressed in my post that I quoted.

No it wasn't. You didn't address anything about the fact that there was merely a temporary source of light despite the fact that the LORD created the earth to be inhabited by mankind.

 

[Derf]

I will use Exodus 20:11 later too advance my argument but first let is look at this verse first:

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

Here the Hebrew word is translated bara'. The following verse uses the same Hebrew word when speaking of the creation of the earth:

"For thus saith the LORD that created (bara') the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created (bara') it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:8).​

The LORD formed the earth to be inhabited. And for it to be inhabited it was absolutely necessary for there to be a source of both light and energy so originally there was a sun close enough so it could provide both light and energy. However, by the second verse of the book of Genesis we read that there was darkness on the surface of the deep seas:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

Since the earth was created to be inhabited and since by verse two there was no source of energy and light there had been a change in the original make-up of the heaven and the earth. So after this change the LORD began to re-form the heavens and the earth to make the earth inhabitable for mankind. At first, the Spirit of God served as a temporary source of light:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" (Gen.1:2-3).​

That served as only a temporary source of light because on the forth day we read:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also" (Gen.1:16).​

Here the word "made" actually means that the LORD arranged them and not brought them into existence out of nothing because the stars had already been created out of nothing. And that brings us to the verse you keep using to try to support your ideas:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

The LORD dealt with the heavens when He rearranged the stars, especially the sun. He rearranged the earth because previously it was without form but He now formed it to be inhabited.

So we can understand that the LORD did not create the heavens and the earth in six days but instead He dealt with both during the six days in order to make the earth into a form which could be inhabited by mankind, including providing a permanant source of light and energy.

How far did you have to search to find THAT translation? "Dealt with"??? I hope you see how ridiculous that translation is, as it says God STOPPED dealing with the world, the stars, and the sea and all that is in them. So now, Jerry, you are saying that God hasn't ever deal with humans since the end of the six days. Or perhaps that He never deals with humans on the sabbath day. Either reading is preposterous, unless you are a deist. Are you a deist, Jerry?

You're digging yourself a deeper hole with each post.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No it wasn't. You didn't address anything about the fact that there was merely a temporary source of light despite the fact that the LORD created the earth to be inhabited by mankind.

Once again, you're reading your beliefs into scripture.

Nowhere does it say that God made a temporary light.

God made light itself on day ONE, right after He made the heavens and the earth, and then He formed the heavens and the earth into something to be habitable.

This ALL HAPPENED in SIX DAYS.

You keep trying to force the text to say something that it does not say, that there was a gap between verses 1 and 2.

The passage in Isaiah describes ALL of Genesis chapter 1, not just verse 1.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nowhere does it say that God made a temporary light.

We read at Genesis 1:3-4 that there was light. This is in regard to the first day.

But later on the 4th day we see that the sun and moon come into play and the sun was to give "light upon the earth" (Gen.1:16-17).

So before the sun began to give life to the earth there was already light upon the earth (Gen.1:3) so the light spoken of at verse three was only temporary.

 

[Truster]

I will use Exodus 20:11 later too advance my argument but first let is look at this verse first:

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

Here the Hebrew word is translated bara'. The following verse uses the same Hebrew word when speaking of the creation of the earth:

"For thus saith the LORD that created (bara') the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created (bara') it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:8).​

The LORD formed the earth to be inhabited. And for it to be inhabited it was absolutely necessary for there to be a source of both light and energy so originally there was a sun close enough so it could provide both light and energy. However, by the second verse of the book of Genesis we read that there was darkness on the surface of the deep seas:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

Since the earth was created to be inhabited and since by verse two there was no source of energy and light there had been a change in the original make-up of the heaven and the earth. So after this change the LORD began to re-form the heavens and the earth to make the earth inhabitable for mankind. At first, the Spirit of God served as a temporary source of light:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" (Gen.1:2-3).​

That served as only a temporary source of light because on the forth day we read:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also" (Gen.1:16).​

Here the word "made" actually means that the LORD arranged them and not brought them into existence out of nothing because the stars had already been created out of nothing. And that brings us to the verse you keep using to try to support your ideas:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

The LORD dealt with the heavens when He rearranged the stars, especially the sun. He rearranged the earth because previously it was without form but He now formed it to be inhabited.

So we can understand that the LORD did not create the heavens and the earth in six days but instead He dealt with both during the six days in order to make the earth into a form which could be inhabited by mankind, including providing a permanant source of light and energy.

Isa 45:8 is not the verse you have posted. Please correct it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

We read at Genesis 1:3-4 that there was light. This is in regard to the first day.

But later on the 4th day we see that the sun and moon come into play and the sun was to give "light upon the earth" (Gen.1:16-17).

So before the sun began to give life to the earth there was already light upon the earth (Gen.1:3) so the light spoken of at verse three was only temporary.

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that the Creator of light and stars could put the light into a ball of plasma and have it emit the light?

The star we call the sun is a light, but it is not light itself.

God brought LIGHT into existence on day one, after He created the heavens and the earth earlier the same day.

But He did not form the stars to give off that light until day four.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Isa 45:8 is not the verse you have posted. Please correct it.

It's Isaiah 45:18. Excuse me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that the Creator of light and stars could put the light into a ball of plasma and have it emit the light?

So you think that the light came from the unformed earth? Even if you are right that light was just temporay, as I said. Or perhaps you think that the earth still emits from the earth which is a ball of plasma?

The star we call the sun is a light, but it is not light itself.

I quoted Genesis 1:17 and said that the sun gave "life upon the earth." Do you disagree with that?

God brought LIGHT into existence on day one, after He created the heavens and the earth earlier the same day.

But He did not form the stars to give off that light until day four.

So the only stars that He created on day one was the stars which do not give off light?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How far did you have to search to find THAT translation? "Dealt with"??? I hope you see how ridiculous that translation is, as it says God STOPPED dealing with the world, the stars, and the sea and all that is in them. So now, Jerry, you are saying that God hasn't ever deal with humans since the end of the six days. Or perhaps that He never deals with humans on the sabbath day.

The LORD stopped dealing with them on the seventh day because He rested on the seveth day:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day. Therefore, Yahweh blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it" (Ex.20:11-12).​

The verse doesn't say that He stopped dealing with them forever but instead He stopped because it was the day of His rest. Now let us look at the following passage which describes what happened on the fourth day:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day" (Gen.1:16-19).​

If the word "made" in this passage is referring to bringing into existence the stars on the forth day then how do you explain Genesis 1:1 which says that in the beginning He created the heavens and the earth?

I say that the LORD was dealing with the stars in the sense that He was re-arranging them so that the sun was giving light to the earth, something that was not happening at Genesis 1:2.

Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?

 

[JudgeRightly]

So you think that the light came from the unformed earth?

NO! Where in the world did you get THAT idea?!

Even if you are right that light was just temporay, as I said. Or perhaps you think that the earth still emits from the earth which is a ball of plasma?

NO!

I quoted Genesis 1:17 and said that the sun gave "life upon the earth." Do you disagree with that?

I see no place within a few verses of 1:17 that says such.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. - Genesis 1:14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:14-18&version=NKJV

So the only stars that He created on day one was the stars which do not give off light?

He didn't create ANY stars on day one!

 

[The Barbarian]

Seems like good advice. But if he was countering those that said the earth had forever been, I don't see how he can get that from a fully allegorized Genesis.

Even if you "fully allegorize" Genesis, it wouldn't support an eternal Earth. In fact, it would deny an eternal Earth. It's not clear what you mean by "fully allegorized", since allegories are meant to be factual, in figurative language.

In other words, allegorizing Genesis allows for any kind of earth, eternal or not.

Nope. Since it says it had a beginning, that's not a possible interpretation.

That's not what Augustine was doing. Augustine believed Genesis' genealogies

The creation story has no genealogies.

I don't agree with him when he allegorizes the 6 days--I don't find it necessary to do so.

Forcing a literal interpretation of Genesis produces logical absurdities like mornings and evenings before there was a sun to have them.

But he hardly supported a creation story millions of years longer by doing so, rather that creation might have been six days shorter.

The evidence available to him did not rule out an Earth no greater than 10,000 years old. However, as you know, he acknowledged that where scripture is not explicit, we should be willing to change our interpretations if new evidence so indicates.

Why do you love Augustine so much when he obviously disagrees with your position?

See above. He studied Genesis for a long time and realized that it was not a literal history. The "days" of Genesis are figurative. His finding, that creation was done in an instant, from which all things developed in time, is remarkably consistent with the evidence we see in the world.

Are you now saying that you are NOT orthodox, since you believe in a much older than 6000 year earth?

The age of the Earth has nothing to do with Christian orthodoxy. If you deny the fact of an Earth many millions of years old, it doesn't mean you aren't an orthodox Christian. God doesn't care if you approve or not; it won't affect your salvation, unless you make an idol of YE, and demand that all Christians must believe it.

Yes, that was my point to you. If you tell people not to believe Genesis as written,

As you have seen, I am asking you to believe it as written, without the alterations of YE doctrine. If you tell them that they must believe the modifications made by YE creationists, how will they believe you when you tell them to believe Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as written?

You claim I don't understand what the scriptures is saying, and I claim the same about you.

Fortunately, God doesn't decide our salvation on those things.

You base your understanding on supposed knowledge revealed from external sources.

As you have seen, St. Augustine simply let the text interpret itself, and realized it was figurative, not literal history.

When I note that literal mornings and evenings without a sun are logically absurd, I base my understanding on the meaning of words. I will admit that if the meaning of words is not consistent, then my basis is shaky. But your basis is shaky by the nature of your human made-YE sources.

These things could easily be allegorized, but to what purpose?

So people could understand them. If the details of the way He made the universe and life, and all other things was critical to His message to us, He might have been more explicit about those things. But it's not what Genesis is about. It's about God and man, and our relationship.

Isn't the main reason to allegorize these statements to allow a different interpretation of them?

Since the allegorical nature of Genesis was noted over a thousand years ago, a literal interpretation is the "different" one; a modern version, only as old as 20th century. YE creationists were unhappy with Genesis as it is, and came up with a re-interpretation that seemed better to them.

Why? The only thing I can think of is that they felt that their own desires were a more trustworthy source of truth--that the history of the earth from a YE perspective is more trustworthy to them than the words God gave them in Genesis, so they imagine that the words should mean something else--something more in keeping with what they personally preferred.

Did Jesus have a reason to speak in parables? Yes, He did. Not every Christian agrees on what that reason meant, but He gave a reason. Did Moses have a reason to write the creation story in allegory?

Moses didn't do it. God did it, and Moses took it down. God did it that way so that Moses would understand. Remember, God wasn't trying to get Moses a degree in cosmology or biology; He was explaining what He did and what it means to man.

I appreciate that you are encouraging me to love God and my neighbor--I'm sure I need that kind of encouragement.

We all do. The point is, that is the message He's giving us. Not the details of the way He created things. He only wants us to know that He did create all things, while the precise way He did it, is not important to salvation in the least.

But if we are looking to understand God, to seek Him to understand His creation better, don't we want to understand His revelation to us, on whatever topic His revelation speaks?

The critical thing is to get from it, what He intended us to get. But yes, knowing more about the way He made things, is indeed a very good thing. Francis Collins has a very good book out about the way that his investigations into genetics enriched and deepened his faith in God. It's worth finding out.

Was Augustine misleading himself and others when he said the scriptures say the earth is no more than 6000 years old?

He had no evidence for the age of the Earth, but pointed out that it could not be eternal. Having no evidence to the contrary, he considered it to be a few thousand years old. But as you know, he acknowledged that such conclusions were subject to future knowledge.

Does evolution send people to hell?

It has nothing to do with salvation.

Does science (so-called) send people to hell?

When scripture mentions "science (so-called)", it's not what you seem to think it is. Might be worth investigating.

We disagree on some of what scripture says,

We seem to agree on the things that matter.

So here you have to redefine death to fit with scriptures' "day"

As you see, scripture uses "day" in more than one way. I'm merely pointing out that if it was a physical death God was speaking of, Adam would not have lived on for many years thereafter. Again, assuming it meant a physical death leads to logical absurdities.

but in Gen 1 you want to redefine scriptures' day to fit with your (allegorical) story.

Rather, I'm objecting to the YE redefinition, to fit their preferences.

Why do you need scriptures to be so woodenly literal here that you have to change the meaning of the word "die" to keep the meaning of the word "day"?

It doesn't seem "wooden" to point out that if God meant a physical death, Adam wouldn't have lived on for many years thereafter.

You're not consistent, my dear Barbarian.

As you see, I'm logically consistent. If you abandon that, then any interpretation, even YE creationism, is equally likely. Can you really not see that you've painted yourself into a(n allegorical) corner, where no interpretation is sure? And you're saying that scripture can be just as effective by speaking part truth.

But they DID die physically,

But not the day he did it, as God promised. If God is trustworthy, then it was not a physical death. I am concerned about what happens to people (including myself, potentially) who want to change what God says, either adding to or taking away from His words to us. He gives us fair warning:
[Rev 22:19 KJV] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

However, that book is not the book of Genesis, so YE creationists have that going for them. Fact is, He doesn't care what you think of the way He created things. That's not going to affect your salvation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Even if you "fully allegorize" Genesis, it wouldn't support an eternal Earth. In fact, it would deny an eternal Earth. It's not clear what you mean by "fully allegorized", since allegories are meant to be factual, in figurative language.

Nope. Since it says it had a beginning, that's not a possible interpretation.

...Genesis' genealogies...

The creation story has no genealogies.

Genesis is more than just the creation story.

Forcing a literal interpretation of Genesis produces logical absurdities like mornings and evenings before there was a sun to have them.

Why is it a logical absurdity when Genesis 1:4 specifically says that God divided the light from the darkness?

The evidence available to him did not rule out an Earth no greater than 10,000 years old. However, as you know, he acknowledged that where scripture is not explicit, we should be willing to change our interpretations if new evidence so indicates.

...

Since the allegorical nature of Genesis was noted over a thousand years ago, a literal interpretation is the "different" one; a modern version, only as old as 20th century. YE creationists were unhappy with Genesis as it is, and came up with a re-interpretation that seemed better to them.

Is it not a good thing to do in science to formulate new theories (or even modify old ones) to better fit the evidence?

You readily admit that Augustine could only do so much with the evidence available to him, but today we have more evidence that the earth is not more than 10,000 years old, so why do you paint those who would try to come up with a more accurate theory in a negative light?

Would not finding out the truth of the matter bring glory to God?

Why? The only thing I can think of is that they felt that their own desires were a more trustworthy source of truth--that the history of the earth from a YE perspective is more trustworthy to them than the words God gave them in Genesis, so they imagine that the words should mean something else--something more in keeping with what they personally preferred.

Moses didn't do it. God did it, and Moses took it down. God did it that way so that Moses would understand. Remember, God wasn't trying to get Moses a degree in cosmology or biology; He was explaining what He did and what it means to man.

We all do. The point is, that is the message He's giving us. Not the details of the way He created things. He only wants us to know that He did create all things, while the precise way He did it, is not important to salvation in the least.

The critical thing is to get from it, what He intended us to get. But yes, knowing more about the way He made things, is indeed a very good thing. Francis Collins has a very good book out about the way that his investigations into genetics enriched and deepened his faith in God. It's worth finding out.

He had no evidence for the age of the Earth, but pointed out that it could not be eternal. Having no evidence to the contrary, he considered it to be a few thousand years old. But as you know, he acknowledged that such conclusions were subject to future knowledge.

It has nothing to do with salvation.

When scripture mentions "science (so-called)", it's not what you seem to think it is. Might be worth investigating.

We seem to agree on the things that matter.

As you see, scripture uses "day" in more than one way.

And that statement must be tempered by the fact that "day" always gets its meaning by the context in which it is used.

I'm merely pointing out that if it was a physical death God was speaking of, Adam would not have lived on for many years thereafter. Again, assuming it meant a physical death leads to logical absurdities.

Rather, I'm objecting to the YE redefinition, to fit their preferences.

It doesn't seem "wooden" to point out that if God meant a physical death, Adam wouldn't have lived on for many years thereafter.

As you see, I'm logically consistent. If you abandon that, then any interpretation, even YE creationism, is equally likely. Can you really not see that you've painted yourself into a(n allegorical) corner, where no interpretation is sure? And you're saying that scripture can be just as effective by speaking part truth.

But not the day he did it, as God promised. If God is trustworthy, then it was not a physical death. I am concerned about what happens to people (including myself, potentially) who want to change what God says, either adding to or taking away from His words to us. He gives us fair warning:
[Rev 22:19 KJV] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

However, that book is not the book of Genesis, so YE creationists have that going for them. Fact is, He doesn't care what you think of the way He created things. That's not going to affect your salvation.

 

[The Barbarian]

Genesis is more than just the creation story.

The creation story is what Augustine was writing about. In a book as large and varied as Genesis, you can expect to find parables and allegories as well as some literal material.

Why is it a logical absurdity when Genesis 1:4 specifically says that God divided the light from the darkness?

Because that is not what the plain meaning of "morning" and "evening" mean. If you have to make up new definitions to support your new doctrine, that's a pretty good clue that it's faulty.

Is it not a good thing to do in science to formulate new theories (or even modify old ones) to better fit the evidence?

It's good in science. Not so good when you add YE to God's word.

You readily admit that Augustine could only do so much with the evidence available to him, but today we have more evidence that the earth is not more than 10,000 years old, so why do you paint those who would try to come up with a more accurate theory in a negative light?

Neither I nor St. Augustine did that. He was quite willing to consider new knowledge and abandon his interpretation of scripture, if the facts showed it to be wrong.

Would not finding out the truth of the matter bring glory to God?

Nobel Laureate physicist, Ernest Rutherford, who established that the Earth was billions of years old, was supposedly found of humming "Onward Christian Soldiers" while at work, so I suppose he thought that it did.

And that statement must be tempered by the fact that "day" always gets its meaning by the context in which it is used.

Yes, which is why the mornings and evenings with no Sun to have them, tell us it's not used in the context of literal days.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

NO! Where in the world did you get THAT idea?!

Here is what you said about the light spoken of at Genesis 1:3:

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that the Creator of light and stars could put the light into a ball of plasma and have it emit the light?

Where did you get that idea? I see nothing in the first chapter of Genesis which speaks of the LORD putting light into a ball of plasma and have it emit light.

Do you have any actual Scripture to support that assertion?

He didn't create ANY stars on day one!

So in the "beginning God created the heaven" (Gen.1:1) but it wasn't until day four that He created the stars?

 

[Ktoyou]

Sun and moon on the forth day, yes. God made light on the first day, but it was not the sun and the moon.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Here is what you said about the light spoken of at Genesis 1:3:

If I am understanding you correctly

You're not.

you are saying that when the LORD said "let there be light" theearth at that time was a ball of plasma and it began to emit light. If that is not what you are saying then please clear up what you said.

This is what happens when you focus too much on two verses instead of looking at the whole chapter.

Have you forgotten that God made the stars (balls of plasma) on DAY FOUR!?

Because that's what I was referring to.

So in the "beginning God created the heaven" (Gen.1:1) but it wasn't until day four that He created the stars?

Right.

God created the heavens (which is space, the universe) and the earth, and then said let there be light.

Conjecture, though it might help you grasp what happened: Genesis 1:1 most likely describes God creating the entire universe (not stars, necessarily, but "space") and the matter that He would later use for stars, planets, and moons, and the earth, which he formed into a ball and on which made a deep ocean of water on the surface. This occurred during verse 1 and prior to verse 2. This probably only took a few hours.

He then spoke light into existence, and then divided the light from the darkness, calling the light day, and the darkness night.

That was the last thing He did on day one.

Fast forward to Day four, and God now uses the matter He had separate from the matter He used for earth to make the stars, the sun, the moon, and the other planets and their moons

It was at this point that God embedded (for lack of a better term) light into the stars.