Why Stop At Birth?

[Stripe]

Well, that law predates Israel, so we wouldn't be imitating Israel, would we?

I can cite the law against kidnapping from the law given to Moses.

Israel provided an "out" even for murder in some cases.

Are you sure? Are you thinking about "avengers of the blood"?

Those situations are justice, not murder.

Others have.

Guess what?

That would be nice, but surely you realize this world is getting more and more corrupt with each passing day. Which is why our trust can never be in man.

Who knows. Maybe we'll win one of these.

It's worth a try, right?

Again, that would certainly not be a hardship for any righteous man, but the problem, once again lies in the inability for man to enforce certain moral laws...like adultery and homosexuality.

Inability?

All it takes is a few rocks. :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

I can cite the law against kidnapping from the law given to Moses.

Yes, and the law for disobedient children who are to be put to death?
Maybe we should have carried that forward. :think:

There is lots of death under the Law of Moses. But, there were lots of sacrifices available to spare the guilty from the death penalty. Unless you stood on the wrong piece of ground....

Are you sure? Are you thinking about "avengers of the blood"?

Those situations are justice, not murder.

No, I'm not sure of anything, Stripe, but I do enjoy the subject.

In fact, though, I was thinking of the manslayers who would flee to the cities of refuge. Granted those were not premeditated murders, but still a crime and still required a penalty. Lots of rules to have to follow. Most other death penalty cases had an out of some sort, though, don't you agree?

Who knows. Maybe we'll win one of these.

It's worth a try, right?




Inability?

All it takes is a few rocks. :idunno:

Yeah, rocks. :chuckle:

I don't think the judges we have today can be trusted. Even the Judges of Israel were not so hot, and failed to judge rightly. If we think we can enact laws like were given to Israel, we'd find ourselves in an unworkable situation. We are an ungodly people.

 

[Stripe]

Yes, and the law for disobedient children who are to be put to death?

We we're looking for things you would uphold.

There is lots of death under the Law of Moses. But, there were lots of sacrifices available to spare the guilty from the death penalty. Unless you stood on the wrong piece of ground.

:idunno:

I was thinking of the manslayers who would flee to the cities of refuge.

That was for accidents, not murderers.

We are an ungodly people.

That's why we need a Godly justice system.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, and the law for disobedient children who are to be put to death?
Maybe we should have carried that forward. :think:

You mean for young adults who have not heeded their parents' instruction, and refuse to correct their behavior, bringing dishonor to their family?

That law?

Because the law you speak of is not talking about little kids who don't know any better.

It's talking about the children (and yes, this includes adults too) of parents who refuse correction.

There is lots of death under the Law of Moses. But, there were lots of sacrifices available to spare the guilty from the death penalty. Unless you stood on the wrong piece of ground....




No, I'm not sure of anything, Stripe, but I do enjoy the subject.

In fact, though, I was thinking of the manslayers who would flee to the cities of refuge. Granted those were not premeditated murders, but still a crime and still required a penalty. Lots of rules to have to follow. Most other death penalty cases had an out of some sort, though, don't you agree?

Where does it call the accidental killing of someone a crime?

In fact, it's quite the opposite:

“And this is the case of the manslayer who flees there, that he may live: Whoever kills his neighbor unintentionally, not having hated him in time past—as when a man goes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he shall flee to one of these cities and live;lest the avenger of blood, while his anger is hot, pursue the manslayer and overtake him, because the way is long, and kill him, though he was not deserving of death, since he had not hated the victim in time past. - Deuteronomy 19:4-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:4-6&version=NKJV

Yeah, rocks. :chuckle:

I don't think the judges we have today can be trusted. Even the Judges of Israel were not so hot, and failed to judge rightly. If we think we can enact laws like were given to Israel, we'd find ourselves in an unworkable situation. We are an ungodly people.

None of them can be trusted, because they're in it for the power, the money, the popularity.

If you aren't aware of my beliefs, we need to have our current government replaced, the whole thing, and implement a constitutional monarchy, and have judges appointed as per Exodus 18. They wouldn't get paid, and they would uphold the law, rather than their own opinion of what the law says, because a judge is not above the law, therefore he has no right to judge the law. If they can't do so, then they would be removed from their position, because their negligence only encourages crime.

Yet even though none of that is likely to happen in my lifetime, that is what I believe we should strive for.

 

[glorydaz]

We we're looking for things you would uphold.

:idunno:

That was for accidents, not murderers.

That's why we need a Godly justice system.

We won't get one, Stripe.

And the system God gave the nation of Israel was not for the purpose of creating a Godly society out of an unGodly one. Which is what it seems you fellas are trying to do. The law of Moses was a temporary set of rules for God's chosen people.

 

[glorydaz]

You mean for young adults who have not heeded their parents' instruction, and refuse to correct their behavior, bringing dishonor to their family?

That law?

Because the law you speak of is not talking about little kids who don't know any better.

It's talking about the children (and yes, this includes adults too) of parents who refuse correction.

So intense. :shocked:

I did not even hint that it was referring to little kids, so spare me the lecture. And if you think you should add this to your list of capital offenses, you've really flipped your dipper.

 

[Stripe]

We won't get one, Stripe.

We might. :idunno:

And the system God gave the nation of Israel was not for the purpose of creating a Godly society out of an unGodly one. Which is what it seems you fellas are trying to do. The law of Moses was a temporary set of rules for God's chosen people.

Not a Godly nation, just a Godly justice system. I want to see our chances improved, not settle for what we've got getting worse.

 

[ok doser]

I want to see our chances improved, not settle for what we've got getting worse.

:thumb:

 

[ok doser]

It is not the government's job to police our activities in our marriage...

Including spousal abuse?

... much less our bedrooms.

Including child molestation?

 

[ok doser]

Murder is more than just a moral issue...

Can you expand on this?

 

[glorydaz]

Where does it call the accidental killing of someone a crime?

Oh, so it's not shedding man's blood?

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.​

In fact, it's quite the opposite:

“And this is the case of the manslayer who flees there, that he may live: Whoever kills his neighbor unintentionally, not having hated him in time past—as when a man goes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he shall flee to one of these cities and live;lest the avenger of blood, while his anger is hot, pursue the manslayer and overtake him, because the way is long, and kill him, though he was not deserving of death, since he had not hated the victim in time past. - Deuteronomy 19:4-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:4-6&version=NKJV

Manslaughter is a crime...which is why they needed cities of refuge. I didn't say it was a death penalty crime. You just assumed I said that.

None of them can be trusted, because they're in it for the power, the money, the popularity.

My, what a shock. :chuckle:

If you aren't aware of my beliefs, we need to have our current government replaced, the whole thing, and implement a constitutional monarchy, and have judges appointed as per Exodus 18. They wouldn't get paid, and they would uphold the law, rather than their own opinion of what the law says, because a judge is not above the law, therefore he has no right to judge the law. If they can't do so, then they would be removed from their position, because their negligence only encourages crime.

Yet even though none of that is likely to happen in my lifetime, that is what I believe we should strive for.

Oh, I'm quite aware of your beliefs, and I thank God you won't get your way. I have no problem giving the death penalty to those who murder, rape, and molest children. There is a direct victim in those cases, and those people need to be removed from among us. Not so with disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, perjurers, and whatever else you decide to add to your list. The government is given for our safety...not our holiness.

No, our time on this earth is limited, and the quicker you kill all the people, the less time they have to hear the Gospel and be saved. God is long suffering...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

And those judges? You wouldn't find a one who are overlooked by God as those were.

 

[glorydaz]

We might. :idunno:



Not a Godly nation, just a Godly justice system. I want to see our chances improved, not settle for what we've got getting worse.

I don't like it either, Stripe, but I'm a realist. Corruption doesn't heal itself, and all of creation is groaning.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

I'm looking for the signs of our Lord's return.

 

[glorydaz]

Including spousal abuse?



Including child molestation?

You know what I'm talking about, brat.


And I say that with all affection.

 

[glorydaz]

Can you expand on this?

Maybe if I tried. But, I'm tired.

Look, those words use the exact same letters. :banana:

 

[JudgeRightly]

Oh, so it's not shedding man's blood?

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.​

That's for someone who intentionally takes up the sword to kill people.

Manslaughter is a crime...which is why they needed cities of refuge. I didn't say it was a death penalty crime. You just assumed I said that.

Accidental manslaughter is not a crime.

Why do you think I highlighted the part where it says, "while his anger is hot," and, "he was not deserving of death"?

My, what a shock. :chuckle:

Oh, I'm quite aware of your beliefs, and I thank God you won't get your way. I have no problem giving the death penalty to those who murder, rape, and molest children.

But you do have a problem with people who want those who harm themselves, those around them, and society as a whole to not get away with their crime.

There is a direct victim in those cases, and those people need to be removed from among us. Not so with disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, perjurers, and whatever else you decide to add to your list.

The direct victim, as you like to fall back on, in each of those cases is, themselves and society, themselves and society and any children who are directly related to them, themselves and society (and in most cases, it literally kills the person they have sexual relations with and themselves, which is enough reason for the death penalty, because they intentionally engage in something that kills people), themselves and society and those who they bear false witness against, respectively.

No direct victim?

Right...

The government is given for our safety...not our holiness.

You keep using this straw man.

Stop it.

If the government cannot enforce laws that protect our society from crime, then it's not fulfilling its obligation to its citizens given by God.

No, our time on this earth is limited, and the quicker you kill all the people, the less time they have to hear the Gospel and be saved. God is long suffering...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And how much time have they had on this earth already to hear the gospel?

Either way, Solomon, even in his backslidden state, recognized that:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

And?

God expects governments to bring wrath upon the wicked. That's why He gave them the authority to do so.

And those judges? You wouldn't find a one who are overlooked by God as those were.

So?

God liked Jethro's idea enough that He included it in the Bible, and had Moses implement it in Israel.

If you can come up with a better system than Jethro, then by all means, please do. I'd love to hear it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't like it either, Stripe, but I'm a realist. Corruption doesn't heal itself, and all of creation is groaning.

So why not try to preserve it as much as is possible with good law?

 

[Right Divider]

But....what kind of an answer is that? :think:

Exactly.

 

[ok doser]

Not a Godly nation, just a Godly justice system. I want to see our chances improved, not settle for what we've got getting worse.

i wanted to come back to this now that i'm in front of a keyboard

getting worse is just what i've been watching happening over my almost sixty year life span - a coarsening of moral values in the culture, reflected by and accelerated by a weakening of law

we used to have laws that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

these went hand in hand with a culture that recognized that homosexuality was wrong


children were raised in households that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

children were raised in churches that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

children were raised in schools that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

children were raised in a society that recognized that homosexuality was wrong


and that recognition was reflected in the law



same thing with adultery, divorce, pornography, abortion

and no, it didn't require a cop in every bedroom, it didn't require the government to be intruding into the citizen's bedrooms

 

[glorydaz]

That's for someone who intentionally takes up the sword to kill people.



Accidental manslaughter is not a crime.

Why do you think I highlighted the part where it says, "while his anger is hot," and, "he was not deserving of death"?

It wasn't until Moses that an OUT was given on the shedding of man's blood. So, you go and accidentally run over someone with your car and we'll see if you have to pay any restitution or get charged with negligent homicide. Negligent homicide. You should have been more careful with that rock you threw.

But you do have a problem with people who want those who harm themselves, those around them, and society as a whole to not get away with their crime.

I do? What kind of a fruitcake are you?

The direct victim, as you like to fall back on, in each of those cases is, themselves and society, themselves and society and any children who are directly related to them, themselves and society (and in most cases, it literally kills the person they have sexual relations with and themselves, which is enough reason for the death penalty, because they intentionally engage in something that kills people), themselves and society and those who they bear false witness against, respectively.

No direct victim?

Right...

You are deliberately harassing me over this issue.
Grow up, JR, and try to act like an adult.

You keep using this straw man.

Stop it.

If the government cannot enforce laws that protect our society from crime, then it's not fulfilling its obligation to its citizens given by God.



And how much time have they had on this earth already to hear the gospel?

Either way, Solomon, even in his backslidden state, recognized that:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV



And?

God expects governments to bring wrath upon the wicked. That's why He gave them the authority to do so.



So?

God liked Jethro's idea enough that He included it in the Bible, and had Moses implement it in Israel.

If you can come up with a better system than Jethro, then by all means, please do. I'd love to hear it.

Don't tell me to stop it. You're posting as a poster in this thread, so DO NOT boss me around or play your power trip on me.

You've become totally unhinged on this topic.

Guess you'd better exert your mighty power and kick me out of this thread, too, because these rantings of yours will never convince me.

 

[glorydaz]

i wanted to come back to this now that i'm in front of a keyboard

getting worse is just what i've been watching happening over my almost sixty year life span - a coarsening of moral values in the culture, reflected by and accelerated by a weakening of law

we used to have laws that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

these went hand in hand with a culture that recognized that homosexuality was wrong


children were raised in households that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

children were raised in churches that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

children were raised in schools that recognized that homosexuality was wrong

children were raised in a society that recognized that homosexuality was wrong


and that recognition was reflected in the law



same thing with adultery, divorce, pornography, abortion

and no, it didn't require a cop in every bedroom, it didn't require the government to be intruding into the citizen's bedrooms

So raise your kids right. I didn't see anyone killing their kids when they disobeyed, back in the day. They weren't killing people for adultery and homosexuality, either.



Wishing for the good old days won't bring them back, boys. Nor will killing people into submission.

What a joke this is.

Righteousness NEVER comes from the LAW.