The Religion of the United States of America

Jacob

Jacob

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Not that there is one religion in the United States, nor that religion is the subject, but that the founding fathers had Christianity in mind or whoever it was that spoke of freedom of religion. While I am for a Judeo-Christian Ethic.
 
The Barbarian

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Jacob said:
Not that there is one religion in the United States, nor that religion is the subject, but that the founding fathers had Christianity in mind or whoever it was that spoke of freedom of religion. While I am for a Judeo-Christian Ethic.
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As Madison later related, the amendment "would have been, to imply a restriction on the liberty defined by the Bill, to those professing his [Jesus's] religion only," or, as Jefferson said, it was clear that religious freedom encompassed "Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination." Ultimately, the bill was adopted and signed into law on January 19, 1786, with only minor amendments to Jefferson's text.
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Virginia_Statute_for_Establishing_Religious_Freedom_1786#its2
 
Jacob

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The Barbarian said:
As Madison later related, the amendment "would have been, to imply a restriction on the liberty defined by the Bill, to those professing his [Jesus's] religion only," or, as Jefferson said, it was clear that religious freedom encompassed "Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination." Ultimately, the bill was adopted and signed into law on January 19, 1786, with only minor amendments to Jefferson's text.
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Virginia_Statute_for_Establishing_Religious_Freedom_1786#its2
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Thank you very much. Is this about Virginia as a state? What is the history of Virginia's statehood in relation to this?
 
The Barbarian

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Jacob said:
Thank you very much. Is this about Virginia as a state?
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This is about the intent of the founders. Madison and Jefferson are the two founders most responsible for the Bill of Rights. Madison pointed out that the First Amendment was taken from Virginia's Statutes, written by Jefferson.

It was the intent of the founders that religious freedom encompassed all faiths and even those with no faith at all.

You could also refer to Madison's Detached Memoranda.
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html

We've already fallen short of the intent of the founders to separate Church and state.

What is the history of Virginia's statehood in relation to this?
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Jefferson's statutes of religious freedom were used by Madison to write the First Amendment.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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The Barbarian said:
This is about the intent of the founders. Madison and Jefferson are the two founders most responsible for the Bill of Rights. Madison pointed out that the First Amendment was taken from Virginia's Statutes, written by Jefferson.

It was the intent of the founders that religious freedom encompassed all faiths and even those with no faith at all.

You could also refer to Madison's Detached Memoranda.
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html

We've already fallen short of the intent of the founders to separate Church and state.



Jefferson's statutes of religious freedom were used by Madison to write the First Amendment.
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Can you show me where and how?
 
The Barbarian

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Jacob said:
Can you show me where and how?
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In 1789, James Madison — nicknamed "the father of the Constitution" — proposed 12 amendments that ultimately became the 10 amendments that make up the U.S. Bill of Rights. Madison was unquestionably the person who wrote the First Amendment in this respect. But this doesn't mean he was the one who came up with the idea. Several factors complicate his status as an author:

Madison initially stood by the unamended Constitution, viewing the Bill of Rights as unnecessary because he did not believe that the federal government would ever become powerful enough to need one.
Madison's mentor Thomas Jefferson was ultimately the person who convinced him to change his mind and propose a Bill of Rights. The freedoms described in the First Amendment – separation of church and state, religious free exercise, and the freedoms of speech, press, assembly, and petition – were of particular concern to Jefferson.
Jefferson himself was inspired by the work of European Enlightenment philosophers such as John Locke and Cesare Beccaria.
The language of the First Amendment was inspired by similar free speech protections written into various state constitutions.

So while Madison unquestionably wrote the First Amendment, it would be a bit of a stretch to suggest that it was solely his idea or to give him the entire credit for it. His model for a constitutional amendment protecting free expression and freedom of conscience wasn't particularly original and its purpose was merely to honor his mentor (and to humor opponents of the Constitution.) If there is anything outstanding about James Madison's role in the creation of the amendment it was that someone of his position (he was Jefferson's protegé) was able to stand up and call for these protections to be permanently written into the U.S. Constitution.
https://www.thoughtco.com/who-wrote-the-first-amendment-721180
 
Jacob

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The Barbarian said:
In 1789, James Madison — nicknamed "the father of the Constitution" — proposed 12 amendments that ultimately became the 10 amendments that make up the U.S. Bill of Rights. Madison was unquestionably the person who wrote the First Amendment in this respect. But this doesn't mean he was the one who came up with the idea. Several factors complicate his status as an author:

Madison initially stood by the unamended Constitution, viewing the Bill of Rights as unnecessary because he did not believe that the federal government would ever become powerful enough to need one.
Madison's mentor Thomas Jefferson was ultimately the person who convinced him to change his mind and propose a Bill of Rights. The freedoms described in the First Amendment – separation of church and state, religious free exercise, and the freedoms of speech, press, assembly, and petition – were of particular concern to Jefferson.
Jefferson himself was inspired by the work of European Enlightenment philosophers such as John Locke and Cesare Beccaria.
The language of the First Amendment was inspired by similar free speech protections written into various state constitutions.

So while Madison unquestionably wrote the First Amendment, it would be a bit of a stretch to suggest that it was solely his idea or to give him the entire credit for it. His model for a constitutional amendment protecting free expression and freedom of conscience wasn't particularly original and its purpose was merely to honor his mentor (and to humor opponents of the Constitution.) If there is anything outstanding about James Madison's role in the creation of the amendment it was that someone of his position (he was Jefferson's protegé) was able to stand up and call for these protections to be permanently written into the U.S. Constitution.
https://www.thoughtco.com/who-wrote-the-first-amendment-721180
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Great or good article. Thank you.

Some say that the United States of America does not have a Bill of Rights, that it is found in Europe. So maybe do some people just speak of Amendments?
 
The Barbarian

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Jacob said:
Great or good article. Thank you.

Some say that the United States of America does not have a Bill of Rights, that it is found in Europe. So maybe do some people just speak of Amendments?
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The first 10 amendments to the Constitution make up the Bill of Rights. James Madison wrote the amendments, which list specific prohibitions on governmental power, in response to calls from several states for greater constitutional protection for individual liberties. For example, the Founders saw the ability to speak and worship freely as a natural right protected by the First Amendment. Congress is prohibited from making laws establishing religion or abridging freedom of speech. The Fourth Amendment safeguards citizens’ right to be free from unreasonable government intrusion in their homes through the requirement of a warrant.

The Bill of Rights was strongly influenced by the Virginia Declaration of Rights, written by George Mason. Other precursors include English documents such as the Magna Carta, the Petition of Right, the English Bill of Rights, and the Massachusetts Body of Liberties.
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/
 
Jacob

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The Barbarian said:
The first 10 amendments to the Constitution make up the Bill of Rights. James Madison wrote the amendments, which list specific prohibitions on governmental power, in response to calls from several states for greater constitutional protection for individual liberties. For example, the Founders saw the ability to speak and worship freely as a natural right protected by the First Amendment. Congress is prohibited from making laws establishing religion or abridging freedom of speech. The Fourth Amendment safeguards citizens’ right to be free from unreasonable government intrusion in their homes through the requirement of a warrant.

The Bill of Rights was strongly influenced by the Virginia Declaration of Rights, written by George Mason. Other precursors include English documents such as the Magna Carta, the Petition of Right, the English Bill of Rights, and the Massachusetts Body of Liberties.
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/
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Thank you.
 
The Barbarian

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Jacob said:
Can you summarize your link?

It's a list of 15 reasons why established religion is bad for Christianity and bad for a nation. It's not easy to summarize, but here goes:

1. No one has the right to force a religious doctrine on anyone.
2. This being true, government certainly has no such right.
3. If a government is free to compel Christianity, it has the right to compel the doctrines of a particular sect.
4.If any man violates God's will, that is a matter between God and man, not government and man.
5. Because establishment assumes that the civil authorities are competent to prescribe religious belief it is wrong.
6. Religion needs no civil support and such support suggests that it is not sufficient in itself.
7. History has shown that establishment causes corruption in the church.
8. Establishment is not necessary to civil government.
9. America has been an asylum for oppressed people; establishment would be contrary to our principles.
10. Establishment would cause our people to leave for other, less oppressive nations.
11. Establishment would stir up trouble and strife among our citizens.
12. Establishment would harm the spread of Christianity.
13. Establishment would encourage disrespect for the law.
14. Establishment is not the will of the majority of citizens.
15. Existing law calls for religious freedom; establishment would violate that principle.

I am interested in a discussion of the 14th Amendment if you have one.
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It basically requires that all state governments avoid violating any rights enjoyed by American citizens. In short, it applies the Bill of Rights to state governments as well as to the federal government.
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Jacob

Jacob

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The Barbarian said:
Jacob said:
Can you summarize your link?
Click to expand...

It's a list of 15 reasons why established religion is bad for Christianity and bad for a nation. It's not easy to summarize, but here goes:

1. No one has the right to force a religious doctrine on anyone.
2. This being true, government certainly has no such right.
3. If a government is free to compel Christianity, it has the right to compel the doctrines of a particular sect.
4.If any man violates God's will, that is a matter between God and man, not government and man.
5. Because establishment assumes that the civil authorities are competent to prescribe religious belief it is wrong.
6. Religion needs no civil support and such support suggests that it is not sufficient in itself.
7. History has shown that establishment causes corruption in the church.
8. Establishment is not necessary to civil government.
9. America has been an asylum for oppressed people; establishment would be contrary to our principles.
10. Establishment would cause our people to leave for other, less oppressive nations.
11. Establishment would stir up trouble and strife among our citizens.
12. Establishment would harm the spread of Christianity.
13. Establishment would encourage disrespect for the law.
14. Establishment is not the will of the majority of citizens.
15. Existing law calls for religious freedom; establishment would violate that principle.



It basically requires that all state governments avoid violating any rights enjoyed by American citizens. In short, it applies the Bill of Rights to state governments as well as to the federal government.
Click to expand...
What is Establishment?
 
The Barbarian

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MennoSota said:
To generalize, the US supports the religion of ME. Unadulterated narcissism is oozing from US society.
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Maybe some people. But as a nation?

America has been named as the world’s most generous nation in the world, where its citizens give the most to charity, according to a new report.

The USA, New Zealand and Canada have the highest rate of charitable donations as a percentage gross domestic product (GDP), the Charities Aid Foundation (CAF) found.

The UK had the fourth highest rate of charitable donations in a study of 24 nations and topped all other EU countries that were looked at.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...f-world-s-most-generous-nations-a6849221.html
 
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