masks work .. to infect you :(

[ok doser]

I explained, clearly, specifically and concisely.
Masks only reduce the chance of an infected person infecting somebody else. It doesn't completely eliminate the possibility. So if you know that someone is sick, a mask isn't good enough- you shouldn't get anywhere near that person. The sick person needs to be in quarantine.

you're ignoring asymptomatic transmission

From a public health viewpoint it looks different. If you can reduce the rate of replication, i.e. the number of people who get infected by a sick person, that is already a huge help.

as the data in the OP show, data from the CDC, that perceived reduction is an illusion

 

[chair]

you're ignoring asymptomatic transmission

I absolutely am not. That is the reason everybody needs to wear a mask, not just sick people. And that is why people with your stubborn attitude are making this epidemic far worse than it needs to be.

as the data in the OP show, data from the CDC, that perceived reduction is an illusion

And as pointed out, you have misrepresented the data.

 

[ok doser]

I absolutely am not. That is the reason everybody needs to wear a mask, not just sick people. And that is why people with your stubborn attitude are making this epidemic far worse than it needs to be.

so you're willing to risk the lives of your elderly loved ones to a cloth mask worn by a possibly asymptomatic infectious caregiver?

And as pointed out, you have misrepresented the data.

data is data - it's right there

 

[chair]

so you're willing to risk the lives of your elderly loved ones to a cloth mask worn by a possibly asymptomatic infectious caregiver?

If an elderly person needs to be taken care of, it should be by someone without symptoms who is wearing a mask. That is better than someone without symptoms without a mask.

What is your point?

 

[annabenedetti]

CDC study: 70 percent of covid infected patients reported ‘always’ wearing a mask

A study by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), which not surprisingly has flown under the major media’s radar, found that 70 percent of Americans who contracted coronavirus in July reported “always” wearing a mask.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...mm6936a5-H.pdf

The CDC has taken the White House medical director to task for misinterpreting the data from this report.

That adviser, Stanford neuroradiologist Dr. Scott Atlas, appears to have taken a statistic from a CDC study wildly out of context to pose an anti-mask argument that has been central to his and President Trump’s approach.

Atlas, a source of nearly endless controversy, sent a tweet on Saturday calling into question the efficacy of facial coverings in preventing the coronavirus. “Masks work? No,” said his tweet. . . .

That conclusion appeared to be based on an errant reading of a CDC study published in the Sept. 11 issue of its Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, a compendium of the latest research. The study in question reviewed data from 154 people who had tested positive for the coronavirus and had been treated at 11 medical centers around the country.

The CDC further speculated that while mask wearing has led to “sufficient protection” within subjects’ social networks, those subjects likely contracted the coronavirus in a bar or restaurant, where people take off masks to eat and drink. . . .

Linsey Marr, a leading aerosol scientist at Virginia Tech who was not involved in the CDC study, came to the same conclusion. “It is true that masks are not a perfect solution, but they are effective at slowing transmission in the community,” she told Yahoo News.

“Anecdotally, it is possible that there are people who have contracted COVID-19 who ‘frequently’ wear masks,” Marr went on to say. “But do they wear masks when it matters most, like at family gatherings and in restaurants? Masks are needed at all times in public buildings when we are with others who are not in our own household.”​

Which is basically what I tried to tell you earlier in the thread.

First: self-reporting isn't predictably reliable. There's something called social desirability bias where people will answer in a way they perceive will be well-received. They can overstate the good or understate the bad. The people responding to the survey already have Covid, and it's quite possible that they want to believe they "always" wore a mask and therefore aren't responsible for getting Covid. It's not necessarily a character defect to want to believe the best about oneself, it's just human nature. But it might not be accurate.

Second: 51% of cases were acquired from family members. How many of us wear masks in our family bubble?

Third: I can't remember the percentage but one of the places the patients had more commonly been in the previous 14 days was restaurants. People can't eat and wear masks and at least where I live you're not required to wear them once you're seated at a table. But for those eating indoors, circulated air can pose a greater risk of exposure to the virus.

I'm not saying masks will always work, but on the flip side they won't always fail and they aren't going to infect you (if you're wearing them and handling them the way you should) more than if you hadn't worn them at all. So using this as a reason not to wear a mask? It doesn't make the case.

 

[ok doser]

If an elderly person needs to be taken care of, it should be by someone without symptoms who is wearing a mask.

and if they're asymptomatic and infectious, all you're buying is the illusion of safety

 

[chair]

data is data - it's right there

See post 12

 

[chair]

and if they're asymptomatic and infectious, all you're buying is the illusion of safety

No,. It's not an illusion at all. I am not 'buying' complete safety, nor do I think I am. I am reducing the risk of infection. Not to zero, but significantly. That's the best I can do.

Do you have another suggestion?

 

[The Barbarian]

It's a symptom of what Mencken called the "one-hundred percenters." A sort of magical thinking, wherein if something doesn't work perfectly, it's regarded as useless.

 

[chair]

It's a symptom of what Mencken called the "one-hundred percenters." A sort of magical thinking, wherein if something doesn't work perfectly, it's regarded as useless.

Here's a funny angle on this: If all Americans would wear masks, far less people would be infected in the US, more businesses would be open, less unemployed- and President Trump would get easily reelected on the basis of a good economy.

 

[ok doser]

No,. It's not an illusion at all. I am not 'buying' complete safety, nor do I think I am. I am reducing the risk of infection. Not to zero, but significantly. That's the best I can do.

Do you have another suggestion?

yes, if you have a loved one who is at risk due to known factors, equip them with a mask designed to protect them

 

[chair]

yes, if you have a loved one who is at risk due to known factors, equip them with a mask designed to protect them

That is also useful. Will reduce the risk further. That doesn't make the health care worker's mask useless.

 

[ok doser]

Here's a funny angle on this: If all Americans would wear masks, far less people would be infected in the US ...

unproven and unlikely based on the data

 

[ok doser]

That is also useful. Will reduce the risk further. That doesn't make the health care worker's mask useless.

it's worse than useless if it gives a false sense of security

 

[ok doser]

Here's a funny angle on this: If all Americans would wear masks, far less people would be infected in the US, more businesses would be open, less unemployed- and President Trump would get easily reelected on the basis of a good economy.

hard to get anything done in America:

Jewish leaders call COVID rules 'blatantly anti-Semitic'

The latest lawsuit said Cuomo's order was “blatantly anti-Semitic, creating religious-observance based color coded ‘hot-spot’ zones directed towards particular Jewish communities.”

The lawsuit said his action “not only flagrantly flies directly in the face of scientific evidence” and a court order limiting what measures the state can take. It also “specifically singles out the Orthodox Jewish community in what has proven to be the latest extension of Governor Cuomo’s streak of anti-Semitic discrimination,” the lawsuit added.


https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4031186

 

[chair]

it's worse than useless if it gives a false sense of security

Look, I know you will do anything it takes to pretend that masks are evil. They aren't. They save lives. And Jewish people can be idiots too.

Masks help. Wear them. Stop being an idiot.

 

[ok doser]

Look, I know you will do anything it takes to pretend that masks are evil. They aren't. They save lives. And Jewish people can be idiots too.

Masks help. Wear them. Stop being an idiot.

Oh, OK

 

[eider]

of course not, but I suspect we'll get no answer from the usual suspects

The Barbarian
Jonahdog
eider
annabenedetti
chair

Would you allow an elderly loved one to be cared for by an infected caregiver if they (the infected caregiver) was wearing a cloth mask?

Duh! Don't you understand 'levels of risk' ?

Look......... if you don't believe in there being any value in masks, I can't help your daftness, but I wear a mask because I know it protects me from touching my face, and the Medical and Science advisers for my country not only promote this, but have pressed for legislation about it, which now exists.


Let's face it, by comparison you're just a bunch of laymen who think you're all more clever, I guess. Not!

 

[The Barbarian]

Here's a funny angle on this: If all Americans would wear masks, far less people would be infected in the US, more businesses would be open, less unemployed- and President Trump would get easily reelected on the basis of a good economy.

Yes, but that would require more logical steps than Trump can manage, these days.

 

[eider]

Masks help. Wear them. Stop being an idiot.

Wow! You sure are an optimist today! :chuckle: