Why Liberals should LOVE Trump

nikolai_42

Well-known member
No. Seriously. I know I'm not a big Political poster (haven't posted anything at all in a while) but the insanity just seems to be compounding itself out there on a daily basis. And somehow I stumbled upon an article that turned on a lightbulb for me (thus, the icon associated with the title). The article is in the link below. It was written by Adele M Stan - who is apparently a left wing journalist and activist associated with (among other things) Right Wing Watch and the Huffington Post. In it, she rants about the authoritarianism of Putin and compares it directly to Trump. One quote comes directly from a report on freedom that makes that direct connection for the author of the article:

Using the example of media under Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin, Puddington writes, “This is not just normal political spin or public diplomacy, but sheer, raw propaganda that deliberately crosses the line between interpretation of facts and outright mendacity. The aim is both to stir up belligerence at home and to isolate, confuse, and demoralize the enemy.”

“Central to the modern authoritarian strategy is the capture of institutions that undergird political pluralism,” he explains. In the United States, outright capture of media on a massive scale is a little more complicated. But where capture is too difficult, undermining public perception of the trustworthiness of a given outlet will do.

Though not my point, it seems a little telling that she would quote this in a day where the majority of news outlets (on a national scale) - and even social media outlets - are biased against anyone on the right. Political pluralism can hardly be maintained in a society where all major media institutions parrot the same line. And while one may well question the proximity of any President to any specific media outlet, the argument here seems self-serving at best. Earlier in the article, she quoted a Seattle outlet that was doing their own paraphrase of the Trump rationale behind his association with Sinclair :

(A): But we're concerned about the troubling trend of irresponsible, one-sided news stories plaguing our country. The sharing of biased and false news has become all too common on social media.

(B): More alarming, some media outlets publish these same fake stories … stories that just aren't true, without checking facts first.

(A): Unfortunately, some members of the media use their platforms to push their own personal bias and agenda to control “exactly what people think.” … This is extremely dangerous to a democracy.​

Going on to point out that Sinclair holds a large stake in the local tv markets, Ms. Stan attempts to chill the reader by warning of onset authoritarianism. Basically, she's worried about the government telling you how to think via the media. She wants political pluralism (or so she implies). But the big danger, is authoritarianism - being told what to do AND what to think.

Again, forget (for the moment) that the news media has been (by enlarge) left of center for decades - and that social media has carried water for those same outlets. Ms. Stan is worried that authoritarianism is coming (indeed, almost here)....yet what does she say near the end of the article :

If you take the president's tweet and the mandatory reading of the fake-news script by its local anchors in tandem with other authoritarian actions taken lately by either the Trump administration or its followers—the ICE raids of convenience stores and motels; the five-year sentence given a black woman who mistakenly thought she had the right to vote in an election and did so; the Salvadoran FBI informant who is now slated for deportation back to the country where his life is now in danger because he reported on MS-13 gang activity; attempts in the states to end abortion rights; the rise in hate crimes; demonization of Muslims; encouragement of law enforcement to get rough with suspects—you can see where we are.

ICE raids - are they inherently evil? Who said? And why? She expects the reader to tow the line that immigration enforcement is assumed bad. The woman given 5 years was a convicted felon and was on parole when she signed a document saying she wasn't a convicted felon (before voting). Was 5 years harsh? Possibly. But this woman was also guilty of filing nearly 800 knowingly fraudulent tax returns and obtaining tax ID's to defraud the government of over $4M. History and credibility suggest she knew what she was doing. The Informant? He was an MS-13 member and was a party to murders himself. Now...could a case be made that he shouldn't be deported? Possibly. But this is hardly an egregious outrage of justice. And ending the right to take the life of the unborn? How dare you!

But what really tells on the left and has the seeds of the authoritarianism they hate so much is in the next two statements (primarily the first) : "rise in hate crimes" and "demonization of Muslims". These (along with efforts such as "Equal Opportunity Employment") are forays into the realm of thought. They cross over from the concreteness of actions and evidence to the ethereal and ephemeral domain where thoughts, intents and other personal qualities roam. Crime is crime - and while violent crimes are awful, the idea that they should be made worse if race or sexual orientation is a motivating factor is repugnant to the concept of justice. Not only that, but it requires MORE legislation to define those thoughts themselves as criminal (not just distinguishing between intentional or accidental murder, for example). And while racism is not to be applauded, it should come as no surprise to Ms. Stan and her ilk that making crimes out of thoughts should require more infringement of government upon individual liberty. That is the seed of her hated authoritarianism - more government control. Quotas and not allowing offensive ideas to be voiced ("safe spaces"!!) are more of the same. Quotas imply that without a fixed percentage of some race being hired that you are being racist. Actually, the very idea of quotes is implied racism itself. The idea that some race isn't good enough to get hired so government has to make a place for you (where you are only there because of the color of your skin!!). That should be offensive to anyone who is hired under those pretenses. Demonization of Muslims is a loaded way of saying we can't think or say anything negative about anyone who is Muslim because there are exceptions - to the point now that the violent Muslim is supposed to be the exception. And since we are erasing and rewriting history, we can't point out that Islam is intermittently very violent because (in part) at its heart is the worship of a capricious God who (eventually) demands the blood of the infidel. Ms Stan wouldn't want you to think (much less say) that and very much would like the law to go after you for it....but she hates authoritarianism.

Clearly, this is less about Trump personally than it is about control. Control over the populace to achieve the agenda. And the left's agenda is allied with the power bases that are on the rise - Socialist thought (entitlement etc...), Globalism and Islamic Supremacy. Socialism/Marxism has been a friend of Islamic supremacy (by way of mutual benefit only) in academic and political circles for decades now. It isn't just post-9/11 but established itself in the fertile ground of revolutionary reactionaries found in universities in the 60's and 70's. Rebellion and hatred for authority were the big thing - and all that went with it swept away most of a generation. That generation is now in its 60's and 70's and is frustrated by its inability to overthrow authority in all its forms. And one day soon, there may be a moment where they will get their wish : "We will not have this Man to rule over us" and the darkness and chaos that covers the earth will be absolutely terrifying. The utter anarchy that they sought for will be granted them - and they will be prey for the demonic allies they made. And then something even more terrifying will come to pass when He who they all sought to overthrow comes to judge the earth - the living and the dead. There will be no hiding then. There will be no salvation since they did not want anything but self-rule. Authoritarianism will look good to them then.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 6:12-17
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I prefer authoritarian liberalism. Universal basic individual human rights are sacred and we should impose the obligation to recognize them as such, in an authoritarian manner.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Please list the "Universal basic individual human rights" for us.
Start with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note these words in the preamble:
...it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law...
And note that therein is the implicit human right to rebellion against tyranny and oppression.

Which necessitates another right, the human right to self-defense, and therefore also the human right to bear arms, where arms are those instruments that enable rebellion against tyranny and oppression.

Sadly the USA is the only liberal nation to recognize the right to bear arms in our Constitution (Mexico doesn't count), and the only nation that even pays lip service to defending that right.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Start with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
The UN is evil and completely opposed to God. So I don't give a damn what they say.

Funny that one of the original drafters is from China. They really know about human rights. :rotfl:

Note these words in the preamble:
And note that therein is the implicit human right to rebellion against tyranny and oppression.

Which necessitates another right, the human right to self-defense, and therefore also the human right to bear arms, where arms are those instruments that enable rebellion against tyranny and oppression.
The right to self-defense is a God given right.

Sadly the USA is the only liberal nation to recognize the right to bear arms in our Constitution (Mexico doesn't count), and the only nation that even pays lip service to defending that right.
Most people (including nations) have no respect for God given rights.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
The UN is evil and completely opposed to God. So I don't give a damn what they say.
I'm no fan of the UN. But you asked a question and I answered you. If you don't like it how about the Bill of Rights.
Funny that one of the original drafters is from China. They really know about human rights. :rotfl:
They don't, and their rights violations are grave imo. They are also a nuclear super power, and how to go about defending the rights of their victims is not an easy matter.
The right to self-defense is a God given right.
I think so too, and that's a universal human right, or a universal individual basic right, or an inalienable right, or an inviolable or sacred or indivisible or indefeasible right, or an absolute right, or a natural, pre-political, native, inborn, inherent, intrinsic, and fundamental right.

It's absolutely wrong to infringe the right to self-defense at all. That's liberal and liberal only.
Most people (including nations) have no respect for God given rights.
The personal philosophy of very many people does appear to be deficient in that regard. The good news, is that all the most developed nations have the liberal institutions of separation of powers, the rule of law, and constitutionalism.
 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
I prefer authoritarian liberalism. Universal basic individual human rights are sacred and we should impose the obligation to recognize them as such, in an authoritarian manner.

Who's "we"? Everybody? Everybody should impose an obligation upon everybody? Or, only some people, but not all people, should impose an obligation upon the balance of the people?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ

Right Divider

Body part
I'm no fan of the UN. But you asked a question and I answered you. If you don't like it how about the Bill of Rights.
You're no fan and yet that is what you quote when I ask you to list "Universal basic individual human rights" that you mentioned.

Very strange.

I think so too, and that's a universal human right, or a universal individual basic right, or an inalienable right, or an inviolable or sacred or indivisible or indefeasible right, or an absolute right, or a natural, pre-political, native, inborn, inherent, intrinsic, and fundamental right.
All basic human rights are individual... and God given.

It's absolutely wrong to infringe the right to self-defense at all. That's liberal and liberal only.
The personal philosophy of very many people does appear to be deficient in that regard. The good news, is that all the most developed nations have the liberal institutions of separation of powers, the rule of law, and constitutionalism.
If you think that "all of the most developed nations" are doing to good job with basic human rights... I'll just have to laugh.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Of the rights themselves and of the nature and character of rights. They are absolute claims against everybody, including government.

So you believe that rights naturally exist? On what basis? Are they inviolable? Because if we look to nature, I don't see much in the way of rights, per se. Just survival of the fittest. So are these rights scientific in the modern sense of the word? If so, what - beyond evolution - can you use to ground these rights?

And since you said these rights need to be enforced in an authoritarian manner, how can they be natural ("nature and character of rights") and why do they need to be enforced? Are these rights granted by this authority (the same one that enforces them) - and if so, does this authority have the similar authority to take those rights away? In other words, are these rights vested in authority itself (to enforce or dispense with as the human authority sees fit) or are they natural rights that are best realized when the proper approach is taken to them?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
So you believe that rights naturally exist? On what basis? Are they inviolable? Because if we look to nature, I don't see much in the way of rights, per se. Just survival of the fittest. So are these rights scientific in the modern sense of the word? If so, what - beyond evolution - can you use to ground these rights?
They're axioms.
And since you said these rights need to be enforced in an authoritarian manner, how can they be natural ("nature and character of rights") and why do they need to be enforced? Are these rights granted by this authority (the same one that enforces them) - and if so, does this authority have the similar authority to take those rights away? In other words, are these rights vested in authority itself (to enforce or dispense with as the human authority sees fit) or are they natural rights that are best realized when the proper approach is taken to them?
Government is weighed according to its defense of them. Government that wounds, invades, disregards, ignores, transgresses, infringes, abridges, tramples, injurs, denies, suspends, censors, offends, or delays them is wanting.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
They're axioms.

Rights in general are axioms or the specific "universal human rights" you are in support of?

Government is weighed according to its defense of them. Government that wounds, invades, disregards, ignores, transgresses, infringes, abridges, tramples, injurs, denies, suspends, censors, offends, or delays them is wanting.

And what should a government do to an individual that transgresses these rights? I'm assuming - since you are an authoritarian liberal - that you would support the limitation of rights for anyone who denies them, correct?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Rights in general are axioms or the specific "universal human rights" you are in support of?
Human rights.
And what should a government do to an individual that transgresses these rights? I'm assuming - since you are an authoritarian liberal - that you would support the limitation of rights for anyone who denies them, correct?
You mean penalties of some sort? Yes.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
So who is in charge of granting and limiting (or removing) rights?
It is the right question, and strictly speaking I think the only answer, is all of those who admit that they are real. If you would like to know who is "in charge" of our universal rights, with real political and military power, then I would say that all the world's liberal democracies all together are. And among them I think the only really solid answer are the American people who admit them, because the American regime in particular is suited to bordering on violent clashes between differing factions who believe very powerfully about whether or not a certain right exists, and if so how it should be precisely defined, so that it can be enumerated and legally recognized, if only in caselaw. All the rights that persist upon surviving the American crucible can be i m o confidently believed in. This is on top of, of course, their primary proof, which is self-evidence itself, as explicitly expressed in the Declaration of Independence of 1776. So in that sense (self-evidence), nobody is "in charge" of our universal rights---they are in that sense "in charge" of themselves. They make themselves known.
 
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