Sports Talk 2018: Lebron to Brady and Everything in Between

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Staubach had it all in spades. He retired with the highest passer rating of all time.
Until he was surpassed, but I agree he was a great one. It's how he cracked the top ten with me. He rarely manages it with others.

He was a better scrambler than Tarkenton. He was a great leader, a man among boys.
He was a better runner than Fran, not a better scrambler. I'd say he had more in common with the guy you short changed, Young. Except Young was faster, stronger and even more athletic, though I don't believe there were many to match Roger as a leader.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Except Young was faster, stronger and even more athletic, though I don't believe there were many to match Roger as a leader.

That is what the stats do not tell about any quarterback, his leadership. If I was starting an NFL franchise and I had my choice of any player in NFL history to be the quarterback and leader of my team I would pick Staubach. No one else comes close!

Otto Graham, who knew a little about quarterbacks and what makes them great, coached the college All Stars for ten years, had this to say about Staubach:

"Of all the quarterbacks in that game, Roger was the best I ever had. He was a great leader--that's the most important thing for a quarterback."


When it came to leadership Montana couldn't carry Staubach's jockstrap and as Otto Graham himself said, leadership is the most important thing for a quarterback.

I agree with Graham and that is why I believe that the best quarterback to ever play the game, in college or the pros, is Staubach.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
That is what the stats do not tell about any quarterback, his leadership.
And yet I got that about him without being there to watch him in his heyday. But I love the game and look into the movers and shakers a bit. Which puts a bit of a hole in your idea that I'm a stat only guy, when you consider it.

If I was starting an NFL franchise and I had my choice of any player in NFL history to be the quarterback and leader of my team I would pick Staubach. No one else comes close!
See, when you put that tail end and exclamation on it you do him a disservice, because only someone blinded by a homer/team bias would write that and literally no one outside of Dallas homers would fail to roll eyes.

You can certainly make an argument, if in the "what if" mode, that he'd be worth consideration, but your bias just keeps pushing you a bridge too far.

Otto Graham, who knew a little about quarterbacks and what makes them great, coached the college All Stars for ten years, had this to say about Staubach:"Of all the quarterbacks in that game, Roger was the best I ever had. He was a great leader--that's the most important thing for a quarterback."

The best of that old guard, to my mind, Graham was. And I've read that. Do you remember me before that most of the qbs on this list had actually played.

When it came to leadership Montana couldn't carry Staubach's jockstrap
You're embarrassing yourself. It's one thing to believe your guy has more of a quality and another to proffer insult to a guy whose nickname tells you why his team felt very differently than you do, and how he could marshal them late in the biggest game to drive for wins.

Montana...I never rooted for him, but he never played less than remarkable in every SB he led a team into...no picks, no rating under a hundred, no losses in multiple efforts. What other quarterback can say that?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Montana...I never rooted for him, but he never played less than remarkable in every SB he led a team into...no picks, no rating under a hundred, no losses in multiple efforts. What other quarterback can say that?

I wonder what Montana's stats would have been if not for Jerry Rice and all the yards after catch he compiled. All Montana had to do was to compete a five yard pass to Rice and then Rice would stretch the completion to make it a fifty yard gain. After all, no one even mentioned the stat called "Yards After Completion" until Rice came along.

It was easy for Montana's team mates to have confidence in Montana BECAUSE they knew that he would be throwing little dinky passes to Rice which Rice would break for a touchdown.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I wonder what Montana's stats would have been if not for Jerry Rice and all the yards after catch he compiled.
Well, pretty good is the reasonable answer, given he won as many Super Bowls without Jerry as he did with him. Joe had 2 years of 90 or better rating with Rice and 3 of those without him. He had his best year just as Jerry was coming into his prime, which you'd expect given how great a wr Jerry was, but Montana's reputation and winning ways preceded the youngster, whose production was never the same after Joe left. But I'll come back to this in a moment.

Joe had an 11.25 yards per catch before Rice, including his anemic rookie year in that (with a weak 7.4).
With Jerry it was 12.33 per catch. About a yard difference. Less if you don't factor Joe's first year learning the system.

All Montana had to do was to compete a five yard pass to Rice and then Rice would stretch the completion to make it a fifty yard gain.
So then I looked at Joe's best year with Rice, 1989, 112 rating and an amazing 9+ yards per completion.

Montana threw for 3,521 yds and 26 tds.
Steve Young threw for 1,001 yards that year and 8 tds.
Steve Bono threw for 62 yards and 1 td.

So, combined, the qbs fro SF threw for 4,584 yards.

Jerry accounted for 1,483 of those yards. Leaving over 3,000 yards for Taylor, Craig, and others.

Meaning Rice was actually around 32% of the passing offense. Montana was largely throwing to others more often, which makes sense. He threw to the best man open, or threw him open. Jerry was that more often than any other receiver, but you are wrong about Joe's habits.

He developed them throwing Super Bowl winning drives and pulling teams together eight years before Jerry ever found the field.

Now Rice did generate a disproportionate number of tds, 17 out of the 36 total thrown by all quarterbacks, or just a little under half.

After all, no one even mentioned the stat called "Yards After Completion" until Rice came along.
Jerry was incredible and his time with Montana was productive, even though most of his prime was with Young.

He averaged 17.9 yards per reception with Joe in their relatively brief time together.
Without Joe, his average (in years where he eclipsed 1,000 yards) was 14.03 per catch.

Or, if you look at Joe's average yards per catch and Jerry's average per catch, you realize Joe had nearly four times the better impact on Jerry than the other way around.

Joe gained about a yard better per pass with Jerry on board. Jerry's average was 3.6 yards better with Joe throwing to him than anyone else.

His highest average after Joe only 15.3 per catch.
With Joe his best year was 20.4 per catch.

In other words, Joe's passing has a great deal to do with Rice's reputation. While he remained potent with Young and beyond, he was never as impressive as he was in those early five full time starting years with Joe, despite his physical prime coming as Joe left and the reigns were taken over by future Super Bowl winning and Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young.

It was easy for Montana's team mates to have confidence in Montana BECAUSE they knew that he would be throwing little dinky passes to Rice which Rice would break for a touchdown.
No. That's just bias and slight showing a want of knowledge, supra. They knew Joe was a winner, that he kept cool under pressure and that he won his hardware with almost completely different compliments. Jerry didn't make Montana's rep, but Joe helped make Jerry's.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So you are arguing that having the best receiver in the history of the NFL to throw to didn't really help Montana's stats except in just a small way! That is absurd!

Give Staubach Rice and his stats would have soared and without Rice Montana's stats over his career would not have matched Staubach's.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
So you are arguing that having the best receiver in the history of the NFL to throw to didn't really help Montana's stats except in just a small way! That is absurd!
I agree it's absurd that you think I said that. I love Rice. He was arguably the greatest at his position and any quarterback would benefit by having him on the field. But the question is how much difference is that, comparatively?

What I actually said is still there boils down to rebutting your notion that Joe's success and reputation was about Rice, because:

1. Joe won as many SBs before Rice got there as he did after Rice got there.
2. Joe averaged 1 more yard per wr catch with Rice than he did without him.
3. Rice averaged 3.6 yards more per catch with Joe than he did in his prime with HOF quarterback Steve Young.
4. Joe had two rings and eight years of establishing his reputation before Jerry stepped onto a professional field.

That was enough to make my point and dismiss yours and I didn't even mention that Joe has 3 Super Bowl MVPs .

Give Staubach Rice and his stats would have soared
Maybe. It depends on a lot of things. Joe was great and winning a different way than, say, Young. With Young the emphasis was more on Rice, who was entering his prime and the yards piled up.

It's another mistake you make about Joe. You're really thinking of Rice the way he was with Young and when the Ninters made him the focal point of their offense.

and without Rice Montana's stats over his career would not have matched Staubach's.
It's amazing how you can keep getting this sort of thing wrong, supra.

Joe had as many SB rings and a better SB performance at position than Staubach before Rice played a down for his Niners.

In 5 productive seasons with Rice Joe averaged 251 yards a game.
In the 5 years before Rice he averaged 245 yds a game.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
In 5 productive seasons with Rice Joe averaged 251 yards a game.
In the 5 years before Rice he averaged 245 yds a game.

That proves what I said earlier is correct:

So you are arguing that having the best receiver in the history of the NFL to throw to didn't really help Montana's stats except in just a small way! That is absurd!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
That proves what I said earlier is correct:
So you are arguing that having the best receiver in the history of the NFL to throw to didn't really help Montana's stats except in just a small way! That is absurd!
Except that I never said or even suggested that.

What I've set out, objectively, is that your idea that Rice made Joe, or even established his reputation is contradicted by two Super Bowls and eight years without him.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Thirteen quarterbacks better than Unitas?

No way.

That's because Unitas was born and raised in Pittsburgh.

However, Unitas isn't even the best QB from Pittsburgh.

The top 10 QB's born and raised in Pittsburgh:

1) Joe Montana
2) Dan Marino
3) Johnny Unitas
4) Joe Namath
5) Jim Kelly
6) George Blanda
7) Jeff Hostetler
8) Marc Bulger
9) Johnny Lujack
10) Babe Parilli

Pittsburgh has SIX native Pittsburgher's in the HOF. No other city comes close.

Hey Jerry, name the Top 10 QB's born and raised in Dallas?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If Staubach didn't have to play the great Steelers team with the Steel Curtain in two of his Super Bowls and instead faced the teams which Joe Montana faced in his Super Bowls Staubach would have been 4-0 in his Super Bowls. If Montana had to face those same Steelers he would have been 2-2 and Staubach would have been hailed as the greatest quarterback in the history of the NFL--not Montana.

That's right Jerry.

In Montana's prime, he faced the Steelers in 1984 & 1987, and lost both times to Chuck Noll's Steelers defense.

In 1984 it was the 49'ers only loss of the season, and it was against a very old Jack Lambert led Steelers defense.

Chuck Noll faced Bill Walsh's west coast offense in 1984 and 1987, and defeated it each time with a shadow of the defense he had in the 70's.(not to mention no Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth, Harris, etc. on offense)

In other words, if Noll defeated Montana and Walsh's west coast offense twice with an average defense in the 80's, during the 49'ers prime, just imagine how Noll would have crushed Walsh and Montana had Noll had his HOF defense of the 70's. (and Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth, Harris, etc.)
 
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tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
October 14, 1984

Steelers vs. 49'ers, at San Francisco

Joe Montana stats:

24/34 ....241 yards....0 td's....1 int....qb rating 78.2
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
My Top 10 Qb's

1) Tom Brady
2) Joe Montana
3) Peyton Manning
4) Dan Marino
5) Brett Favre
6) Johnny Unitas
7) John Elway
8) Roger Staubach
9) Drew Brees
10)Fran Tarkenton
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
October 14, 1984

Steelers vs. 49'ers, at San Francisco

Joe Montana stats:

24/34 ....241 yards....0 td's....1 int....qb rating 78.2
Every qb has games like that. The Steelers weren't regular foes, and they split the series with him, but some of his worst games over the years were against them. I think they were in the Niner's head the way New England has been in the Steelers' head.

That said, apart from the Niners he played the Steelers in the 93 WC game with a lesser Chiefs squad and beat them while posting a 90.8 rating

But then, everyone has games like that. For instance...

2008 AFC Championship game

Brady stats: 22/33, 209 yds, 2 td, 3 int, qb rating 66.4 (they won anyway)
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Give Brady Rice, and Brady would have won 12 Super Bowls.
Brady lost with Randy Moss and the best offense, production wise, in NFL history.

Put Montana with Bill and company and he has more hardware than Brady. Brady lost to the lesser Manning...twice.

In fact, I think a handful of qbs could have done more than Tom with the same coach and teams. Rodgers, Peyton, Montana, and Young for starters.


My Top 10 Qb's

1) Tom Brady
Only even in the top five because the rules provide a longevity and his division was a cake walk. Overrated, but still great.

2) Joe Montana
Best Super Bowl qb of all time. If that's the standard, he's the GOAT.

3) Peyton Manning
Best of his generation. Carried lesser teams and with much poorer coaching. Rarely had a really good defense to work with during his Colt's run. Really, he was a cerebral version of Marino. He was just smarter than the other guys playing the position, the way Marino had an arm/release/recognition that was simply out of everyone else's reach.

4) Dan Marino
Supra.

5) Brett Favre
Great fun and tremendous talent, but not top 10. Too many mistakes. Overrated here and in general, though I think he belongs in the top 20.

6) Johnny Unitas
If my list has a weakness this is it. Peyton before Peyton...but the numbers don't put him in the top ten unless you fudge them. And Graham was clearly better than Unitas.

7) John Elway
The most overrated qb of all time, based largely on his incredible physical gifts and his late play when those had mostly gone and he had to play within a system. If he'd had the latter head early there's no telling. He might have been Young plus and the best of all time, but he didn't.

8) Roger Staubach
Great qb who had years lost that would have elevated him to a top five position, arguably. As it sat I couldn't put him higher than 10.

9) Drew Brees
The perfect storm for NO and his coach.

10)Fran Tarkenton
Great qb and forgotten these days, but doesn't belong anywhere near the top 10, while Young absolutely has to be high here and is missed by you. Only Joe Montana and a spate of concussions kept Steve from challenging for the best ever.
 
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