annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Do you think all rules should be followed?
chrysostom
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
Do you think all rules should be followed?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Bad popes and bad priests aren't new. It's good you want to shine a light in those corners, but they're not new corners in a new house.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I follow all the rules and get banned frequently.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Which of your usernames gets banned the most? Any correlation there?
I'm talking about rules in general, not TOL in particular. In general, many rules are good and necessary and some are unjust or stupid or overly authoritarian.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
A 'post hoc' one.
Who gets to make the definitive ruling on whether a rule is just or unjust, in your view? Is it someone's authority to decide, or is it through the application of some process to determine what is and what is not a just rule? I presume that there must be an objective standard for what is just vs. unjust. Do you agree with that?
mercy and forgiveness
A Necessary Ingredient
even for serial killers and child molesters but only after they are put in jail. Child molesters cannot be cured. Somehow the bishops did not understand that. They now understand that it is costing billions of dollars. Money is finally forcing their hand. It may be too late. Credibility, collections, and attendance have suffered beyond repair. The homosexuality issue has divided the Church preventing a consensus on moral issues. Suddenly climate change and immigration have replaced abortion and same sex marriage. Conservatives and rigid dogmas are somehow to blame.
Home
A Necessary Ingredient
even for serial killers and child molesters but only after they are put in jail. Child molesters cannot be cured. Somehow the bishops did not understand that. They now understand that it is costing billions of dollars. Money is finally forcing their hand. It may be too late. Credibility, collections, and attendance have suffered beyond repair. The homosexuality issue has divided the Church preventing a consensus on moral issues. Suddenly climate change and immigration have replaced abortion and same sex marriage. Conservatives and rigid dogmas are somehow to blame.
Home
So tell us what is the corruption and why it isn't new?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Just go back and look at some of the bad popes. Like Pope John XII. And the incestuous pope, I can't remember which one that was. Sexual promiscuity, power plays, greed, avarice, and palace intrigue. What's actually new?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
jonathan morris
A Priest
who left. Why? Why are so many priests leaving? I don't know so I can only speculate based on what I do know. We have a priest shortage. They are leaving faster than we can replace them. The percentage of homosexuals has been increasing even thought there has been an effort by the popes to not ordain them. Therefore the priests leaving are mostly not homosexual. Why are they leaving? The priests, bishops, and cardinals in Rome are mostly homosexual. The bishops and cardinals in the United States are mostly homosexual. Not being a homosexual priest can be a hard row to hoe. You have to be very careful what you say and do. You will have to deal with active homosexuals. Your chances of becoming a bishop are not good. Most if not homosexual are at least sympathetic with their problems. If you aren't, better not let anyone know.
Home
A Priest
who left. Why? Why are so many priests leaving? I don't know so I can only speculate based on what I do know. We have a priest shortage. They are leaving faster than we can replace them. The percentage of homosexuals has been increasing even thought there has been an effort by the popes to not ordain them. Therefore the priests leaving are mostly not homosexual. Why are they leaving? The priests, bishops, and cardinals in Rome are mostly homosexual. The bishops and cardinals in the United States are mostly homosexual. Not being a homosexual priest can be a hard row to hoe. You have to be very careful what you say and do. You will have to deal with active homosexuals. Your chances of becoming a bishop are not good. Most if not homosexual are at least sympathetic with their problems. If you aren't, better not let anyone know.
Home
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Perhaps if all along the Church had 1. allowed priests to marry 2. allowed women to be priests we wouldn't be in the situation we're in.
This may help:
leavingthepriesthood.com
I've only skimmed the surface so far so I can't speak to the whole site but this certainly rings true:
The Vatican’s public response to this crisis was the promise to screen out gay candidates for ordination during their seminary preparation. With this statement, they made homosexual priests the scapegoats in this crisis, even though they know pedophilia is a separate issue. They have taken the easy way out by exploiting society’s homophobia and sacrificing these priests on the altar of self-preservation. This is a far cry from Jesus, who stood with the marginalized and was crucified because of his solidarity with them. It’s revealing that the Vatican intentionally tied pedophilia to homosexuality in order to exonerate mandated celibacy and avoid having to make the systemic changes necessary to find real solutions.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Celibacy and Sex
Mandatory celibacy defines a priest primarily by sex and places an inordinate amount of attention on his sex life. When the typical lay person meets a priest, they perceive him first and foremost as a “celibate” and have an internal dialogue that goes something like this: “Is he really celibate? I wonder what he does with his sex drive. Is he gay? He must masturbate a lot. [Mod edit - redacted blasphemy], I hope he’s not a pedophile.” If he’s attractive, they think, “Father what-a-waste”, and, if not attractive, they think, “No wonder he went into the priesthood”. Those who think this occurs because our society is preoccupied with sex are mistaken. It’s always been this way. People are now just more willing to talk about it. The fact remains that, because “celibate” primarily defines a priest by his sex life, he is viewed and understood primarily by sex and for this he suffers now more than ever. Priests are not “celibates”; they are “human beings”.
Priests who leave to marry are not looking only for sex. From some of the emails received, many Catholics seem to think their quest is all about sexual union. They cannot seem to see beyond sexual intercourse to the quest that a priest has for love, emotional intimacy and nurture. For them, it is all about [redacted], which reveals what their marital lives must be like and one can only feel sorry for their wives. The primary quest for priests who leave to marry is mutual love and intimacy with their spouses of which intercourse is only one part. I find it offensive when someone implies that a priest leaves because "he can't keep it in his pants". No, the issue is "he can't keep the rock wall around his heart".
The term "mandatory celibacy" implies that a priest is to abstain from sexual activity. It objectifies sexual intercourse and separates it from the union of heart and soul that a healthy marriage entails. "Mandated celibacy" gives the impression that [redacted] is what marriage is all about and tends to turn women into sexual objects. Yet, that is not what most priests are after. They simply long to have another person to love and share their life with like any other normal human being. Mandated celibacy shames priests for having this desire, and because celibacy is all about sexual abstinence, their sexuality is shamed too. This is a dark cloud that hangs over the priesthood, which all priests are forced to enter upon ordination. They are forced to publicly declare that they will forever deny this important part of their lives. This isolates them and makes them into an oddity that people often pity more than respect. The problem is forcing celibacy upon priests. The dynamic would change if celibacy was optional.
People may object by saying, "But celibacy is optional. No one was forcing you to be ordained." But you are mistaken. Our Call is from God and it was profound. The Church has imposed celibacy upon God's call. Mandated celibacy was not part of the early Church (Jesus cured the mother of Saint Peter's wife. Mark 1:30-31) and never became a law until around 1000 AD. Mandated celibacy is not the will of God and it has caused tremendous problems in the Church.
It’s ironic that church officials, obsessed with controlling priests’ sex lives by mandating celibacy, have themselves created this sex abuse crisis. For centuries, they have constructed a mystical facade around celibacy and their efforts brought welcomed protection and privilege. But, like Toto in the Wizard of Oz, this crisis has pulled back the curtain and no amount of incense can hide the little man pulling the levers. Mandated celibacy is far more integral to this crisis than the Pope and bishops are willing, or perhaps able, to admit.
Mandatory celibacy defines a priest primarily by sex and places an inordinate amount of attention on his sex life. When the typical lay person meets a priest, they perceive him first and foremost as a “celibate” and have an internal dialogue that goes something like this: “Is he really celibate? I wonder what he does with his sex drive. Is he gay? He must masturbate a lot. [Mod edit - redacted blasphemy], I hope he’s not a pedophile.” If he’s attractive, they think, “Father what-a-waste”, and, if not attractive, they think, “No wonder he went into the priesthood”. Those who think this occurs because our society is preoccupied with sex are mistaken. It’s always been this way. People are now just more willing to talk about it. The fact remains that, because “celibate” primarily defines a priest by his sex life, he is viewed and understood primarily by sex and for this he suffers now more than ever. Priests are not “celibates”; they are “human beings”.
Priests who leave to marry are not looking only for sex. From some of the emails received, many Catholics seem to think their quest is all about sexual union. They cannot seem to see beyond sexual intercourse to the quest that a priest has for love, emotional intimacy and nurture. For them, it is all about [redacted], which reveals what their marital lives must be like and one can only feel sorry for their wives. The primary quest for priests who leave to marry is mutual love and intimacy with their spouses of which intercourse is only one part. I find it offensive when someone implies that a priest leaves because "he can't keep it in his pants". No, the issue is "he can't keep the rock wall around his heart".
The term "mandatory celibacy" implies that a priest is to abstain from sexual activity. It objectifies sexual intercourse and separates it from the union of heart and soul that a healthy marriage entails. "Mandated celibacy" gives the impression that [redacted] is what marriage is all about and tends to turn women into sexual objects. Yet, that is not what most priests are after. They simply long to have another person to love and share their life with like any other normal human being. Mandated celibacy shames priests for having this desire, and because celibacy is all about sexual abstinence, their sexuality is shamed too. This is a dark cloud that hangs over the priesthood, which all priests are forced to enter upon ordination. They are forced to publicly declare that they will forever deny this important part of their lives. This isolates them and makes them into an oddity that people often pity more than respect. The problem is forcing celibacy upon priests. The dynamic would change if celibacy was optional.
People may object by saying, "But celibacy is optional. No one was forcing you to be ordained." But you are mistaken. Our Call is from God and it was profound. The Church has imposed celibacy upon God's call. Mandated celibacy was not part of the early Church (Jesus cured the mother of Saint Peter's wife. Mark 1:30-31) and never became a law until around 1000 AD. Mandated celibacy is not the will of God and it has caused tremendous problems in the Church.
It’s ironic that church officials, obsessed with controlling priests’ sex lives by mandating celibacy, have themselves created this sex abuse crisis. For centuries, they have constructed a mystical facade around celibacy and their efforts brought welcomed protection and privilege. But, like Toto in the Wizard of Oz, this crisis has pulled back the curtain and no amount of incense can hide the little man pulling the levers. Mandated celibacy is far more integral to this crisis than the Pope and bishops are willing, or perhaps able, to admit.
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You need to be careful about what you find on the internet
Copy and paste implies that you agree
Copy and paste implies that you agree
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
They don't have the authority to overrule the Apostles.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Did you think I didn't? Really?
Now you can do more than speculate. I invite you to listen to the voices of the priests themselves.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Lumen Gentium, 22.:
The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
And you think that his power can even overrule the Apostles? Please.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
It's not what I think, it's what's found in the teaching of the Church. The pope can change canon law. Will it happen anytime soon? It will take a different pope in a different era, so probably not in my lifetime, but it doesn't mean it won't happen. Previous popes are relying on tradition (although seemingly not on the tradition of women deacons in the early Church).
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Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Popes can't overrule the Apostles.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Read my edit above, please.