Dear Lon

[Town Heretic]

As per my rep, I think I'd like to hear more about your background. I 'assumed' because it was the Confederate flag, we were talking about a Southern concern.

You assumed correctly. Except in my case I came up in a very old Southern family in the heart of Dixie and with the old war chest and tales. We're kin to the Lees of Virginia on my mothers UDC side of it.

The Confederate flag mostly stayed in those war chests until around the time of the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[PureX]

In the end that's what it all boils down to .. whether there is a God who rewards good and punishes evil, or, there isn't and in the words of that eminent philosopher John Cougar Mellencamp, "Nothin' matters and what if it did?"

I'm banking on the former ... wadda ya got to lose?

Fantasies about rewards in the afterlife are how we justify our cowardice in this one. It's why the overlords love religion.

 

[Town Heretic]

Fantasies about rewards in the afterlife are how we justify our cowardice in this one. It's why the overlords love religion.

What if you can skip Pascal and argue the context of faith and how it addresses human psychology and even biology is superior to the alternative? And if a neutral advance is practically impossible (moral actions being made and the decisions with them, however we feel about it or label it) and a service inevitable, then making a choice no more or less likely but demonstrably superior to the individual and arguably to the collective isn't cowardly, it's wise.

 

[PureX]

What if you can skip Pascal and argue the context of faith and how it addresses human psychology and even biology is superior to the alternative?

We aren't talking about the practical value of faith itself, we're talking about what that faith is being applied to. And the relative results.

And if a neutral advance is practically impossible (moral actions being made and the decisions with them, however we feel about it or label it) and a service inevitable, then making a choice no more or less likely but demonstrably superior to the individual and arguably to the collective isn't cowardly, it's wise.

But that isn't the result, is it. Most people have no idea what you just wrote even means. People who are generous of spirit and who act for the well-being of the collective do so regardless of religions. Just as people who are selfish and act always in favor of their own well-being also do so regardless of religion. So religion doesn't really effect this one way or another.

But people who believe that this life is an illusion intended to set them up for the next, tend not to care as much what happens here, one way to the other. They become deadened, spiritually, because their focus is always elsewhere, in some religious fantasyland.

I don't believe this is what Jesus was trying to teach us. In fact, just the opposite. I think he was specifically trying to teach is that everything is about the spirt in the here and now. That to love God is to love our brother, here and now. To do right by God is to do right by our brother, here and now. And that to be rewarded by God is to be rewarded with love, here and now, by the healing that happens when we live in Christ, and for the well-being of our brothers and sisters in this world. Salvation is not 'pie in the sky', it's here and now. It's real life, not fantasies about an afterlife.

Further, I think organized religion perverted his message to further the power and control of the overlords. They turned religious Christianity into an exercise in obedience, with the rewards to come after we're dead, so we won't expect any from them is this life. A religion of "do what we say, and expect nothing from us for it, but you'll be rewarded for it when you're all used up, and dead". A mighty convenient ideology, for them, wouldn't you say? In fact, it's one that our overlords today would very much agree with, I'm sure.

 

[ok doser]

Most people have no idea what you just wrote even means.

you're just noticing? :idunno:

 

[Town Heretic]

We aren't talking about the practical value of faith itself, we're talking about what that faith is being applied to. And the relative results.

He seemed to be offering Pascal's wager and you responded to it. I'm suggesting there's a better argument.

But that isn't the result, is it. Most people have no idea what you just wrote even means.

I don't know if that's true or not but it only really matters that you do for the moment.

People who are generous of spirit and who act for the well-being of the collective do so regardless of religions.

I don't know if that's true, though there's a religious argument in support of it, actually. But it doesn't impair my point about contexts and service to at least one inarguable good.

Just as people who are selfish and act always in favor of their own well-being also do so regardless of religion. So religion doesn't really effect this one way or another.

That we simply differ on. If a person's faith doesn't impact how they see and relate to others it's an argument against faith, but I think it does impact and alter. It won't make you perfect or close to it, but it changes you, sometimes a great deal and all at once and sometimes incrementally over time.

But people who believe that this life is an illusion intended to set them up for the next, tend not to care as much what happens here, one way to the other.

That's not a Christian precept. This life is incredibly meaningful in the Christian faith, but I'm aware that not every religion sees it that way.

I don't believe this is what Jesus was trying to teach us.

Neither do I. I'd say it's antithetical to his approach.

In fact, just the opposite. I think he was specifically trying to teach is that everything is about the spirt in the here and now.

I think that's overreaching, but to some extent that's why I'm saying forget Pascal and his gamble on the next life. Love God for the impact in this one. For the here and now.

That to love God is to love our brother, here and now. To do right by God is to do right by our brother, here and now. And that to be rewarded by God is to be rewarded with love, here and now, by the healing that happens when we live in Christ, and for the well-being of our brothers and sisters in this world. Salvation is not 'pie in the sky', it's here and now. It's real life, not fantasies about an afterlife.

To my way of seeing it, salvation is about eternity. Relation is about how you live in it, the now.

:e4e:

 

[PureX]

He seemed to be offering Pascal's wager and you responded to it. I'm suggesting there's a better argument.

Actually, I didn't really respond to it as a Pascal's Wager proposition because that's long since been shown to be irrational. And I agree with you that there are far better arguments for the practice of faith in God. But sadly, most religious believers (at least on TOL) are ignorant of those better arguments, and do practice a Pascal's Wager kind of faith. Which I think is spiritually debilitating. Like a kind of spiritual sickness.

If a person's faith doesn't impact how they see and relate to others it's an argument against faith, but I think it does impact and alter.

I think you're confusing the two different definitions of 'faith'. It's easy to do. There is faith as an intellectual act of trust, and there is faith as the ideology one entrusts themselves to. I tend to use the term almost exclusively to imply the former. While the latter I call 'religion', because 'faith' is too vague and confusing to use in that instance.

It won't make you perfect or close to it, but it changes you, sometimes a great deal and all at once and sometimes incrementally over time.

Yes, yes. But changes us how? That depends of what ideology we are placing our faith in. I believe when we place our faith in the teachings of Jesus as the Christ (as stated previously) the results are real, and positive, and now. But when we place our faith in the teaching of traditional religious Christianity (perverted by centuries of the overlord's self-interests) the results are generally negative. As it deadens people spiritually, makes them cold and cowardly, too obsessed with obedience, and absurdly superstitious.

I think that's overreaching, but to some extent that's why I'm saying forget Pascal and his gamble on the next life. Love God for the impact in this one. For the here and now.

Pascal's Wager is irrational on the face of it. It's dismissed immediately by anyone who can think logically. It's only through that perverted, obedience-driven strain of religious Christianity that it gains any traction as an argument, and that's because that kind of religion discourages logic, and promotes the reasonableness of 'threat-based ideology'.

 

[fzappa13]

As per my rep, I think I'd like to hear more about your background. I 'assumed' because it was the Confederate flag, we were talking about a Southern concern.

I was talking about symbols and the way they are constructed and used by our would be societal programers. At a certain level words themselves are symbols and they too regularly undergo mutation as well. A certain amount of this is endemic and natural. A certain amount of this is not and it is this aspect of the mutation of the meaning of words and symbols that concerns me regardless of the subject concerned be it the Stars and Bars or the Ten Commandments. Deconstructing words and symbols for the purpose of rhetoric and marginalizing the thoughts and feelings of others is both lazy and dishonest in my opinion. For some their ideology is more important than any fact and they have no qualms whatsoever misrepresenting facts for the greater good they see to be gained by creating an intellectual gollum to support their ideology. I have about as much interest in engaging ideologues as I do drunks. It's a fools errand. That said, I would encourage those who would to examine and review the symbols and words used by others. They are as often tools of manipulation as they are information.

Originally Posted by fzappa13
I said all that to suggest this; we embrace much if not most of what we think about the world through school and media. There are folks who are well aware of this and have achieved control of these resources for their own purposes. They do not have your best interest at heart. To the contrary, they seek to divide us by any means available. North/South, Black/White, Male/Female … fill in the blanks for yourself. We are being pitted against each other so we do not focus on them and what they are doing until it is too late.

There is already division and what you are talking about is surely happening as well. That is the point of a lot of politics since the beginnings of the 60's. 50 years of it certainly has to affect our culture.
Patrick Henry comes often to mind when thinking on the ills and looking for the answers. He said a lot of important things, I think, most specifically to Christians. He'd wake us up from a terrible slumber. I don't think we slumber, but lack organization yet.

Organization requires a leader and ours has yet to make His reappearance.

Originally Posted by fzappa13
Rubbing salt in the wounds of a perceived enemy seldom elicits anything but more of the same. Telling people they can't fly a flag or honor the ten commandments only strengthens the resolve of those that would and that is exactly the intent of those who would pit us against each other. They seek to have us quibble amongst ourselves while they go about their business. Unless and until we see past their machinations we will forever be slaves to them.

So are you agreeing with Town on this? Or simply telling me he should be consistent? I think I understand both. Either way, I think a thread like this helps give perspective, but I'm yet trying to see the connection between the Union Jack and Ten Commandments. For me, I was shocked that it was flying on Capitol grounds yet. I had assumed that the end of the war had united the states once again. On that, perhaps a history lesson is in order, as you say. I wasn't taught anything regarding the Confederate flag in school, nor did I learn that the South had legitimate concerns during that war, until college (I wonder if that history teacher had tenure very long).

Google “Reconstruction”.

 

[fzappa13]

In a culture where money equals survival, there is no worse fate than having none, because you can't survive.

The overlords now own everything. They own the means of producing food, clothing, shelter, transportation, and communication. They own the means of producing everything we need to live. And we have to work for them, now, for money, to buy these things from them if we want to live. Money is the key to everything, now. Money = freedom. Money = life. Money = security. Money = opportunity. While having no money = imprisonment, hopeless, and eventually, death.

This is why our culture worship money above all else. Because it's money that gives us life. And this is exactly how the overlords (capital investors) want to keep it. Because it makes them our demigods; our almighty "job providers" (meaning paycheck providers). It makes them the people in charge of everything we need to live. And they are in charge of these, now. Totally and completely. They are the masters of our fate. And we're too frightened and ashamed to even admit this to ourselves. To admit that we have allowed them to subjugate us to such a total and humiliating degree. To enslave us through our own stupid fear, greed, and ignorance.

So we busy ourselves blaming it all on each other. Chasing down one scapegoat after another, so we don't have to see that we are the cowards. That we have allowed ourselves to become enslaved while we endlessly preached and touted our love of freedom and self-sufficiency. When in fact, we have been anything but free, or self-sufficient.

I remember the protagonist in "The Grapes of Wrath" opining that all one really needed was an acre of land. This is true if all one is concerned about is sustenance but few of us are satisfied with that. We have been persuaded that we need so much more and in allowing ourselves to be thus persuaded we have offered ourselves up on the altar of consumerism ... in my opinion. As my dearly departed father used to say, "consumerism consumes consumers."

Jesus said, "Having food and raiment with these things be content." It has been my experience that we seldom are.

 

[fzappa13]

I remember the protagonist in "The Grapes of Wrath" opining that all one really needed was an acre of land. This is true if all one is concerned about is sustenance but few of us are satisfied with that. We have been persuaded that we need so much more and in allowing ourselves to be thus persuaded we have offered ourselves up on the altar of consumerism ... in my opinion. As my dearly departed father used to say, "consumerism consumes consumers."

Jesus said, "Having food and raiment with these things be content." It has been my experience that we seldom are and herein lay the seeds of our discontent.

 

[PureX]

I remember the protagonist in "The Grapes of Wrath" opining that all one really needed was an acre of land. This is true if all one is concerned about is sustenance but few of us are satisfied with that. We have been persuaded that we need so much more and in allowing ourselves to be thus persuaded we have offered ourselves up on the altar of consumerism ... in my opinion. As my dearly departed father used to say, "consumerism consumes consumers."

Jesus said, "Having food and raiment with these things be content." It has been my experience that we seldom are and herein lay the seeds of our discontent.

There is a difference between existing, and living. To live, we need love, and to be challenged. We need to learn and to share what we learn with others. We need to be be and to feel useful to others.

We need to consume more than food, air, and water, to live, rather than just to exist. And what point would there be in our just continuing to exist? Why bother?

The problem is not that we consume. The problem is that we don't properly identify what we need. Mostly because we have created a hyper-materialist culture that is constantly telling us that what we need is another 'product'. When in truth what we need is better discernment regarding the true value of the things, the people, and the circumstances in our lives.

 

[fzappa13]

There is a difference between existing, and living. To live, we need love, and to be challenged. We need to learn and to share what we learn with others. We need to be be and to feel useful to others.

We need to consume more than food, air, and water, to live, rather than just to exist. And what point would there be in our just continuing to exist? Why bother?

The problem is not that we consume. The problem is that we don't properly identify what we need. Mostly because we have created a hyper-materialist culture that is constantly telling us that what we need is another 'product'. When in truth what we need is better discernment regarding the true value of the things, the people, and the circumstances in our lives.

Funny how people can appear to disagree with you and then go on to basically reiterate what you said. :chuckle:

 

[Lon]

Google “Reconstruction”.

Thanks. I've read books regarding the Civil War, have been a good history student, but there is scant information concerning the Confederate flag flying on capital steps. Most articles say it is a resurgence. I'll keep reading.

 

[PureX]

Funny how people can appear to disagree with you and then go on to basically reiterate what you said. :chuckle:

That's because I'm always right, no matter how you all choose to look at it.

:devil:

 

[fzappa13]

That's because I'm always right, no matter how you all choose to look at it.

:devil:

A good case for mandatory vaccinations. I had a bad case of it when I was 14 but I eventually got over it.

 

[fzappa13]

Thanks. I've read books regarding the Civil War, have been a good history student, but there is scant information concerning the Confederate flag flying on capital steps. Most articles say it is a resurgence. I'll keep reading.

Libraries are still a wonderful source for stuff like that but many keep track of how often a book is checked out and cycle out the lesser used stuff. Texas has a really good lending program where you can look for a book through the state data base and you can check out a book from any library a part of the program, which most of them are, and they will send it to your library. Another really neat source is your semi-local federal depository library. It will blow your mind what all you can find there. If you're interested in the flag itself, like the original flag the flew over the first thirteen colonies, it is masonic in it's design. The part Masonry played in the civil war is one of it's better kept secrets. If you're interested in symbols ... that's likely a whole other thread.

To put it plainly, "googling" will only get you so far. If you really want to get to the bottom of a subject you're going to have to cast your gaze a little further afield. Bibliographies are your friend.

 

[PureX]

There ain't no fixin' perfect!

 

[fzappa13]

There ain't no fixin' perfect!

"Ah feel yor pain"

 

[fzappa13]

Mission Impossible?

Lon, one of the more interesting aspects of war finds politicians busily passing legislation while everyone is distracted that would likely not otherwise pass muster. The original 13th amendment to the constitution is not the one you see today. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find out what was the original 13th amendment and what happened to it?

 

[fzappa13]

Lon. You might also want to check out the Versailles Treaty. It's another shining example of what happens when the so called winners of a war dress the wounds of their enemies with salt.