The Terri Case - this is ridiculous

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Nineveh

Merely Christian
Stelakh said:
Let's get something straight right off the cuff. I'm really sick to death (ha!) of seeing the phrase "supporting the murder of handicapped folks".

When what you should be sick of is supporting it.

My mother, who died under two hours ago, has spent the last three years in a nursing home after suffering four major strokes. Don't you dare even think about accusing me of "supporting the murder of handicapped folks".

You are though. And you should quit. It's shameful.

I support the rights of individuals. I don't attempt to force my morals on others. I'm not a fascist. I don't easily sling such inflammatory comments at others. I don't use religion as a sword. I don't use the bible as a bludgeoning tool.

What you are defending is the "right" of a man to murder his handicapped "wife" by starvation.

I DO believe that nobody knows the full story, despite the timeline from people who have been with this from the beginning, just like you didn't now MY story before you made your wild, inflammatory, and uncalled for remark.

You seem to "know enough" to weigh in in favor of the murderer. I can only base my opinion of you by what you say now.

And if this post seems a little gruff, it could be a combination of being sick of the stupidity of prhases like the one you used, with a bit of emotional upheaval from having my mother just die. Perhaps I'll recant later, but I don't think so right now.

I'm not looking for an apology from a supporter of murder. It's nice you have the freedom to express the venom from your heart. Let everyone see the depths of your hate for life.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Zak,
Since you do not know me at all, other than from a few web posts, I find it amazing that you'd even consider comparing me to Terry.
I wasn't comparing you beyond your admitted atheism.

So even though Terry is worse than Zakath could ever be... here comes the requisite religionist double-think and anti-atheist ad hominem...
Well, it actually is hard to figure out just how much damage Randall has done compared to your's concerning people's relationships to God. So there is no way I could be sure. No ad hominems here.

I have a basis for judging rightness and wrongness. You mererly disagree with it. That doesn't mean such a basis doesn't exist...
As you wish.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
keypurr said:
How about Medical fees?

:shocked:

You mean it's a question some of the money has went to her actual care? Why aren't you asking about the 10k in his name? Isn't that a little odd? Or the 55k in the name of a bank?

I wonder...

Do you know what michael has denied this woman?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Yorzhik said:
Zak,
I wasn't comparing you beyond your admitted atheism.
Thank you for clarifying that.

Well, it actually is hard to figure out just how much damage Randall has done compared to your's concerning people's relationships to God. So there is no way I could be sure. No ad hominems here.
Does it matter? I don't prostelyte, nor do I ask people for money while providing people with vicarous thrills of being arrested for breaking the laws that I disagree with.
 
C

cattyfan

Guest
avatar382 said:
Please read before you hit the "quote" button.

Like i said,

I read what you wrote just fine...but this thread is about Terri Shiavo, and your hypothesis is misleading, as in her case (the topic of this thread) she didn't get to make a choice.

Perhaps you need to read thread titles more carefully...
 

avatar382

New member
cattyfan said:
I read what you wrote just fine...but this thread is about Terri Shiavo, and your hypothesis is misleading, as in her case (the topic of this thread) she didn't get to make a choice.

Perhaps you need to read thread titles more carefully...

Obviously, this thread is about Terri.

But, lets face it, there are issues under the table that have not been fully brought to light. People oppose the court descisions for different reasons.

Most feel that her parents should make the descision because the husband is a bastard, others dispute that she is unaware.

But, a few around here have said that even if she had written directive, and was vegetative, pulling the plug is "assisted suicide".

What I am trying to get a feeling and opinions for:
If for the purpose of argument we assume momentarily that Terri is vegetative and unaware, and If for the purpose of argument we assume momentarily that she would not want to live in a vegetative state, did the courts make the right decsision?
 

avatar382

New member
drbrumley said:
Its ok to die, not to kill someone.

So what do you think? This is a yes/no question:

If for the purpose of argument we assume momentarily that Terri is vegetative and unaware, and If for the purpose of argument we assume momentarily that she would not want to live in a vegetative state, did the courts make the right decsision?
 

avatar382

New member
drbrumley said:

Back up a minute.

If we KNEW Terri was in a vegetative state without hope of recovery and we KNEW her wishes were to not be kept on life support under those circumstances, you are saying the courts made the WRONG descision?

Why?!??!??!?

Do you deny that patients have the right to refuse medical treatment?
 

Chileice

New member
Chileice said:
In the midst of a very sticky ethical situation, I do appreciate the attempt to correlate it to scripture.
However, I think this case points out how far we have come since scripture was written. In Saul's day or Jesus' day or even George Washington's day or your grandfather's day, these questions would not have been able to be asked. Terry would have been dead whether we like it or not. And although she may not be technically brain dead, she certainly has led a long relatively unresponsive life.

Perhaps what this case does more than anything is force us to look at our OWN lives.
1. What would I want if I were in Terry's case?
I personally would want to be dead. I would not want to be an interminable burden for my family if I was not contributing to their well-being. Now were I an invalid, but capable of communicating of actually interacting in life, I would want to live in order to fulfill a purpose in the lives of others. I would NOT want my family rather my wife, my kids or my parents to feel like they were somehow being unloving if they pulled the plug and sent me to heaven. I would expect them to make every reasonable effort to try to help me recover, but if say, after a year there was no hope of recovery, why burden them further?

2. What if I am Terry's husband?
I would want my wife to recover. I love her more than anyone on this planet. But I would also want to respect her wishes. If she had expressed that she did not want to live on only heroic life-saving technological intervention, I would try to be brave enough to respect that, even though I would be the one experiencing the great loss.

3. What if I were the parents?
I would want the best for my daughter. If I TRULY thought there was some chance of recovery for a family member, it would be almost impossible to "pull the plug". But I would also hope that I wouldn't just keep him/her hanging on ONLY for my selfish reasons.

4. What if I am the judges, etc.?
I believe I would try to release Michael from whatever financial and legal obligations he has after this length of time. As a person I despise the fact that he has just let his wife rot. In a technical sense he has abrogated his role as husband and I think forfeitted his right to speak for her by breaking his marriage vows. However, for him, she is already dead. As a judge, I must also see that it is a bit like an MIA case, where the spouse may be declared dead for legal purposes although there is no proof that death has occurred. But I would release Terry to the parents. If there is someone willing to take on the financial and physical aspects of care and there is no EXPRESS written consent to die, what harm could possibly be done releasing her to her own parents?

5. What lessons can we learn?

Write a living will for heaven's sake, for family's sake, for your own sake. Take the time to face the potential reality. Have it down and then, most likely, you will never have to deal with it anyway. But at least there will be an expression of what is wanted by the patient rather than letting families tear themselves apart trying to second-guess each other.

6. My hopes.
I hope they get the tube back in one way or the other. I hope she is released to her parents and then I either hope she dies peacefully, if there is no hope or that there is an amazing recovery once the tube goes in. Who knows? it might shock her system back into functional mode.

I would be interested to hear the answers to these questions from others:
1. What would you want if YOU were in Terri's position or what would you have hoped you had done ahead of time, what directives would you have wanted to give?

2. What if you were Terri's husband, what would YOU do?

3. What if you were Terri's parent, what would YOU do?

4. Given the caseAS IT IS: What if I you were a judge, what would YOU propose as a solution?

5. What lessons can we learn from this tragic case?

6. What are your hopes for a resolution?.
 

JoyfulRook

New member
Chileice said:
I would be interested to hear the answers to these questions from others:
1. What would you want if YOU were in Terri's position or what would you have hoped you had done ahead of time, what directives would you have wanted to give?
I would not have a living will. I would want to be kept alive if I am in a vegetative state. If I am Terminal It is ok to let me die. BUT DO NOT KILL ME!

2. What if you were Terri's husband, what would YOU do?
Let her live.

3. What if you were Terri's parent, what would YOU do?
Let her live. Take care of her.

4. Given the caseAS IT IS: What if I you were a judge, what would YOU propose as a solution?
Let her live.

5. What lessons can we learn from this tragic case?
Written directives should not matter. Whether the patient wants to be killed or not it does not matter. It is ok to die, but not ok to kill someone.

6. What are your hopes for a resolution?.
I don't have any hopes. America is going to HELL in a handbasket. Hells Bells.....
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
4. Given the caseAS IT IS: What if I you were a judge, what would YOU propose as a solution?
Declare Terri and Michael divorced, and hand Terri's care over to the parents.
 

JoyfulRook

New member
Thia said:
So, you're against the death penalty?
Ok just to clarify to the willfully ignorant and others: We're talking about a disabled person. It's ok for them to die (old age, terminal illness, etc.) but it is not ok to kill said disabled person.

Convicted Capital Criminals should be swiftly executed.
 

BillyBob

BANNED
Banned
avatar382 said:
Back up a minute.

If we KNEW Terri was in a vegetative state without hope of recovery and we KNEW her wishes were to not be kept on life support under those circumstances, you are saying the courts made the WRONG descision?

Why change the parameters? Let's, instead, ask the question from the perspective of reality.

We KNOW that Terri is NOT in a vegetative state. We DO NOT know that she has no chance of recovery to some degree.

Now, re ask your question.
 
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